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Suspension linkage..help! |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 19:50 |
I have 6 of the teflon washers i got if you want them or anyone else wants to clone them. |
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w00dzy
Premium Member Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Location: UK South Status: Offline Points: 1469 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 20:01 |
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Some fantastic advice..
Thanks very much. It is a little late for me now bit will save this page to refer to in the future. Rang up AP this morning who quoted 110.00 posted for 6 bearings 6 seals and 3 pins!! Ouch. I degreased and re greased the dog bone bearings and installed them after work as they didnt have a hint of brown on them. So ive ordered 2 bearings 2 spacers and 1 pin for the rear swing arm connection as the seal was fubared and the bearings rusty. Set me back just over £40 :( But they are official aprilia parts.. The after market ones do look gopd at £70 for a set of 3 though... Can you send me a link for the teflon washers think im going to pick some up tomorrow. I am a bit shocked aprilia havent done anything about this issue. Yes it is maintenance related but the owners manual says nothing about doing this work regularly.. |
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w00dzy
Premium Member Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Location: UK South Status: Offline Points: 1469 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 20:01 |
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Whats the best way to fit the new bearings?
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SPOOKY
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The scally! Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Liverpool Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 20:06 |
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Turns out that one of the blokes I work with has a brother who is a qualified laser cutter
Here is a picture showing a rough blank with the beefed up rear leg, before vibro deburring and finishing, next stage after that hard anodising. The only thing I can't be arsed with is the direction arrow as this, believe it or not, puts silly money on to each plate. I'm sure Ian might confirm. ![]() I don't think the boss thing will work as apart from cost there is a certain amount of end float built in to the whole suspension setup owing to mass production. As I've said earlier I've been running these plates for over a year along with the teflon washers that Spoonz obtained from a contact of his in Holland ( any chance of getting hold of any more Col ) and I've had no rubbing of plates against the dog bone or dry bearings since and if a teflon washer wears out, hasn't yet, just throw another in at the cost of a few pence. Laters SPOOKY |
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w00dzy
Premium Member Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Location: UK South Status: Offline Points: 1469 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 20:35 |
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Any chance you could have a batch made up?
Getting the bearings out is a pain.. |
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w00dzy
Premium Member Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Location: UK South Status: Offline Points: 1469 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 20:36 |
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SPOOKY
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The scally! Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Liverpool Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 21:06 |
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wOOdzy, getting a batch made up wouldn't be a problem but these are the Gen2 plates. These ones I have are destined for Dazzers bike but if there's interest I can get laser boy to rattle a run off, and would be cheaper than the AF1 plates. As I metioned the pic just shows the rough blank but after treatment and hard anodising it'll be ready for our sh*te weather.
Laters SPOOKY
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10767 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 21:13 |
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One of the designs I did
![]() the standard Aprilia part is superimposed on top but I would follow the AF1 pattern to a certain extent with a shallow recess rather than a full cut through. Raised bosses are certainly do able,just more machining involved. |
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www.apworkshops.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 21:24 |
Plates look good. The washers were a 1 off as far as i know. He had a hard time sourcing the material i seem to remember. I have 6 washers left as i said. If they are just fitted to the bottom back pin that would stop the rub and then 3 people could make use of what i have left. To put it all into perspective to anyone majorly concerned, the number of failures as a percentage of bikes is tiny (Hence why there was no recall) but the potential outcome if your an unlucky one is huge which is why wanted mine changed. No one, even the Aprilia investigators completely established what chain of events triggers the overload of the plate. It isn't just that the oem plate is overly weak, it's not. More likely it has a fairly small margin of over engineering and certain circumstances of maintenance or stress means that is exceeded. |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10767 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 21:30 |
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Kev,I first thought of lasered blanks (in fact that's how I'd buy the blanks in, albeit in oversize form and with undersize holes)
If I did the job though it would then go on one of our CNC machining centres to be machined all round and have precision aligned holes bored in with decent deburring chamfers around all machined edges. I just can't churn out unfinished stuff so I'd probably have to go overboard and machine engrave an arrow and logo on as well like we do for other customers. You can see why I dropped the idea really ,although should some spare capacity materialize at work (after I've sorted some slotted cam wheels) I may just knock up a set for added bling and see where we go from there. |
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www.apworkshops.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10767 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 21:42 |
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Here are some parts we make for another customer who specializes in polyurethane suspension products for competition cars and they mould in their products after we finish the alloy arms.
These are for a Scooby I believe hence the anodizing colour. ![]() Why are PTFE washers a problem, apart from the cost of the matl I mean? |
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www.apworkshops.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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SPOOKY
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The scally! Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Liverpool Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 23:09 |
Ian, hello mate hope things are good. Just a word of warning. I too tried a very heavy beefed up design like your own pictured but when I got it set up on the swingarm on mine there was all sorts of problems with the fitment mainly because of the machining of the swingarm pivot point at the back of the link plate. The MPL plates would seem to be the max of metal you could go to, as per the photo of Badgers, without machining the swingarm and taking the cast edge off. ![]() I've had several enquiries regarding these and will probably go ahead with a batch (if numbers are right) but as I said even the etched arrow, on both sides of a plate, adds nearly £6 to the pair so is it worth it, Ian, you could do it a lot cheaper in house I'm sure but as you know all of this is getting subbed out. I can't see anybody fitting them upside down as the bike would probably look like a Harley but a stronger plate made from a stronger alloy, finshed better than the original Aprilia plates that are made from crunchie bars can't be a bad thing. As Spoonz says "piece of mind" Laters SPOOKY
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 23:49 |
The posts are probably on here somewhere still but i think it was the size of the washer thatwas an issue from memory. It may just be he didn't have the sources you might have. He wasn't an engineer or in the trade i think he was getting them as a favour for the Dutch onwers club guys or something.
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Dazzer
Premium Member Scally Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Skem Status: Offline Points: 2207 |
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Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 07:32 |
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ooh things are coming along very nicely here boys, i'm sure there will be plenty of demand for these. Nobody wants to risk a failure now do they?
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Si600
Premium Member Joined: 01 May 2012 Status: Offline Points: 927 |
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Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 08:31 |
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F' it, I'm in. If I'm taking the thing to bits to check the bearings anyway why not replace the sideplates whilst I'm in there?
I will need to talk to someone about the process though.
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 08:55 |
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There was a lot of postings on apriliaforum about this. One post had over 60 pages of posts to it. Strangely, watching this one evolve looks like a repeat from all those years back....not a bad thing at all....its good to show the 'newer' prilla owners what issues existed and what issues most likely still exist today....certainly how to deal with them. Better informed is good.
On the other post was some bloke banging on about probability of failure, and at less than 1% overall, what was the fuss. The 'fuss' for me was that there was no middle ground in terms of failure and injury...if it failed, you came off, simple....you come off then you are at the mercy of pure luck: speed, corner, immovable objects, other traffic. If your tyre punctures, you feel that as it deflates (happened to me, most of us too I expect) you can deal with that, you have a chance...if the plates fracture......thats that, good bye, god bless hope for the best.....the worst bit about that is if you are really lucky, you will scratch your head and wonder why...you may notice the busted plates and put it down to the accident, not the cause. Another poster predicted that only one plate actually fractured, overloading the second plate which would also fracture too.....so dont look at this 'possible' issue that both plates caused the problem.....it might be only one was the actual cause, the other couldn't hold up on its own. With that perspective...your not looking at both plates failing together, at the same time as the cause of an accident, but your looking at one or the other which in some eyes says you have 2 chances of this problem happening to you...not one! Get your head round that. Spoonz nailed this on the head though, the less than 1% chance of failure may result in some very serious damage to the rider, even death, as was the case for one chap. Spoonz point then was for the price of uprating the plates, its a no brainer and I agreed at the time as a brand new prilla owner, and bought a set of the AF1 plates which are installed still and working well. I would hate to think how things could have turned out had I not changed the plates as I have racked up 44K miles on it now, all weather, touring, tracking and general bloody hooning. I bought peace of mind, and it is as valuable today as it was then when I decided to change the plates. However, final thought. If you did change the plates, it does not negate the need for regular servicing....those linkages, con rod, dog bone, whatever you want to call it, should be maintained regular....take them out, look at them, clean them and grease. If you have the chance to do this, I would do it as your next mod. My tuppance worth.
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 09:17 |
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Couldn't have put it better Taps.
My thought was then and is now, if someone has a serious accident and i knew but said nothing i would never forgive myself. So i always chirp in when this comes up. knowledge is power as they say. It's up to the individual whether to act on it or not. Even if you don't your chances of problems are greater from lack of maintenance on the bearings than they are from the links alone unless one leads to the other. |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10767 |
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Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 17:14 |
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That's probably more the root cause than material or design defects I suspect.
Kev, all good here thanks mate. Thanks for posting that pic,I see what you mean ref the possible interference,it would need a Gen 2 as a template really. If you're up for getting some made then I'll do the same as last time and forget about the whole thing till someone resurrects the topic in another 5 years My priority is slotted cam wheels when I get time to think at work,as I intend doing some work engine wise when time permits. |
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www.apworkshops.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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wigginsjp
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: calne Status: Offline Points: 3485 |
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Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 17:25 |
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I'd be interested in a set too. Along with any washers etc
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SPOOKY
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The scally! Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Liverpool Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 12:04 |
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Taps, like Spoonz said, your bang on the money with that post bud.
Ian, with your access to a CNC machine what about a heavier version of the dog bone something like the Spoon Valley Racing ? Defo a track setup that one looking at the revised angles on the link plates.
I should have a few completed sets of plates within two weeks, four different companies doing their own thing and running the parts back and forth takes it's time, but with bank holiday weekend looming it might be a bit longer. I've got a couple of enquiries on the go re the teflon washers and hope to hear something about them early next week.
Laters
SPOOKY
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BB1000
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Joined: 11 May 2010 Location: Bedford Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 12:13 |
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Good work guys
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sexy red rdv
Moto3 racer
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 Location: Halifax Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 12:58 |
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When Aprilia performance services my dogbone suspension linkages they noted that my plates were made of Steel
which seemed to them, unusual
Its a 2003 RSV mille
What do ya know
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BB1000
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Joined: 11 May 2010 Location: Bedford Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 13:50 |
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Mine are stainless ... I replaced the first time this issue appeared ... Would like a stronger better dogbone part with grease nipples though ... Hint hint :D lol
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10767 |
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Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 23:11 |
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Just done a search for the parts in question Kev,
![]() Nice bit of kit Although altering the rate and ratio of the linkage without taking into account the damper properties could be a bit risky I would think,one assumes they have a better understanding than most of the variables involved. The machining looks nice though,like the artistic way they lost some weight on the dogbone. The fun one can have with a good Cad-Cam program,a ball nose e/mill and some spare time. |
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www.apworkshops.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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foxy
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Posted: 25 Mar 2013 at 09:48 |
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Sorry if I've missed summat obvious, but is this a gen 1, gen 2, or both, issue? Mines an 07.
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Si600
Premium Member Joined: 01 May 2012 Status: Offline Points: 927 |
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Posted: 25 Mar 2013 at 09:55 |
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It's a G2 issue, originally seemed to just affect the first ones out, but an 07 is now nearly 6 years old and if the bearings have never been looked at then it might be getting on to critical time. I don't know for certain though, it's only supposition on my part. I've got an 07 and AFAIK they've only been looked at once, and that was because Griff did a full service on it the year before last. Whilst I've got it in bits I'm going to get in there and have a look/clean and if the guys come up with new link plates then I'll replace them whilst I'm at it. As Taps said, the chance of failure is only 1%, but do you want to be that 1%?
HTH
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 25 Mar 2013 at 11:44 |
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No thanks needed. Just sharing my thoughts.
![]() If anyone is going to have a go at the spoon valley version, let me know. I'd like to change my dynamics a little as I never carry a pillion and track more than ride now. Linear sounds like an improvement...read the SVR website as to why they developed this bit of kit. Over 300 is too steep in price though.........ouch.
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Factory 04
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SPOOKY
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The scally! Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Liverpool Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Posted: 25 Mar 2013 at 15:37 |
Ian, I was thinking of just keeping the dimensions of the original dog bone, with standard angled link plates, so as not to alter stroke or ratio but have a nice cnc machined one as in the pic.
Laters
SPOOKY
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BB1000
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Posted: 25 Mar 2013 at 19:58 |
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I like ... I want :-D
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Wavestarved
Premium Member Joined: 15 Oct 2012 Location: Up sh*t creek Status: Offline Points: 2310 |
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Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 19:49 |
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Sorry to resurrect this thread again, no I'm not! Lol
Are the bearings the same size gen 1 or gen2? |
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