FRONT END LOSS:TRACK RUBBER HELP
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Category: General Chat
Forum Name: Racing Talk
Forum Description: Racing your Aprilia or a track day addict. Let's hear about it. Watch Motogp etc ? discuss here.
URL: http://www.rsvr.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=4401
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Topic: FRONT END LOSS:TRACK RUBBER HELP
Posted By: jools
Subject: FRONT END LOSS:TRACK RUBBER HELP
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2009 at 09:56
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Im after some advice and views on tyres you are using on the track. This year i have been using either pirelli supercorsa sc1 (front) sc2 (rear): Pirelli corsa 3: Then i changed to Metzeler Rentec because they are cheaper than the pirelli,s at £110 a pair: Then i changed to Bridestone BT003 slicks. Out of three offs ive had this year two have been on the BTOO3 slicks, loosing the front end, big style very quickly. Im tyring to get my head around why i loosed the front end so quick. The cause will almost be 90% me but I would still like to work it out fwhy for the future.
I was not on the brakes but accelerating out of a corner, a fastish corner 80-90mph Sunnyout Croft, (highside you would think not a front end loss). The tyres were really warmed up both sides particularly the side that gave way, ie tyre warmers before and the off happened about five laps in. Track condition was dryish, had been light drizzle that had dried especially on the racing line.
My guess that it was a combination of too fast out the corner,?? a damp patch of track ??and tipping in too fast ?? which leaves me wondering if the BT003 slicks is not suitable for an RSV factory or are they not suitable for me as they do tip in quicker??? Jools
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Replies:
Posted By: andy777
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2009 at 11:19
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Jools, I use bridgestone slicks for racing.
Slicks grip well in a very narrow temp range the bridgestones are front 50-65 and rear 65-85 degrees. If your not in this temp range then they don't work very well. On a damp track you would struggle to get them to the right temp. Also if your running slicks then you need to look after them, they loose grip with every heat cycle, they loose about 10-15 degrees in 5 mins when not being ridden or off the warners! You need to remove tyre warmers as late as possible and refit them immediately you finish riding, even before you take your helmet off!!! otherwise your tyres will be finished very quickly. Also if your running bridgestones the front runs at 60 degrees if you can't control the temp of your tyre warmers then they will heat them to 80 degrees and they will cook and loose grip! They are a pain in the bum so i wouldn't bother for track days. Also don't buy 2nd hand slicks. Alot of the above also applies to any race tyre ie super corsa pros etc And we haven't even got onto pressures!!!!!!!!!! I used to use a pirelli dragon corsa III for track days, no need for warmers, grips in a huge temp band and last for ages  Andy, |
Posted By: Russ101
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2009 at 12:45
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I agree with Andy. I would stick to treaded tyres for trackdays. If it's the stiffer carcass of the Bridgestone slicks you prefer try using Dunlop treads they have the same stability.
I've witnessed alot of front end crashes with Bridgestone slicks. Mostly when they have been left on for a few races. From what i've seen, they really do go off and start to look greasy on the edges the longer they are left on. ------------- New Era Sound of Thunder #45 www.southerncrossmotorcycles.co.uk www.russellmearsracing.com |
Posted By: jools
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2009 at 09:31
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Cheers lads much appreciated for your input, what youve mentioned Andy about the tyre warmer temperature could be true. The tyre warmers i use do not have a temperature display so i could of overcooked the tyres as youve said. The first thing i do when i return from a session is to put the tyre warmers on before anything else as i know that slicks loose temperature very quickly if not used. I think it Maybe an idea to get some with a temperature display which would eliminate overcooking tyres. I agree with you about corsa 3: i actually did four track days with one set and they are probably still good for the road. When i used the bridgstone slicks i could tell initially that i had a lot more grip and an easier tip in than the corsa 3 but oviously not enough consistant grip for the conditions. And what Russ mentioned also rings true as a friend of mine has had two front end losses this year on bridgestone slicks !!!
I intend to go racing next year so i was giving a few different tyres a go to see what works best for me. I do like the super corsas but they are getting incredibly expensive, at the moment they are around £270 a pair. And unfortunately youve got to look at costs which is why i gave the Rentec,s a go. I was impressed with how they performed to what they cost, a good compromise i think; but no good for racing i think. Nearly all tyres are more than good enough, its obviously finding a setting, temp, pressure etc that works for the tyre and you.
I know from above that Andy uses Bridgestone slicks for racing. What tyres do others use for racing and why??
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Posted By: Russ101
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2009 at 23:01
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I used Dunlop slicks. Like the Bridgestones they have a harder carcass so they don't have all the movement you get with the Pirelli's and Metzeler's but I think you will pay about the same as the super corsa's about £270 a pair. ------------- New Era Sound of Thunder #45 www.southerncrossmotorcycles.co.uk www.russellmearsracing.com |
Posted By: dangerousdilbert
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 13:32
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hi all, i've been using pirelli sc3's i really rate these and i get them cheap so best of both worlds, does anyone know where i can get a decent set of wets at a reasonable price? ------------- keep it sunny side up! |
Posted By: jools
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 21:16
| I agree with you about the Corsa III . I did four trackdays and they still had plently of life left in them for the road. I was killing a set of Super corsa pro in one trackday and my wallet was really groaning!! At the moment i havent trawled around for prices, but no doubt they will be around the £200 mark give or take £20 for a pair. As far as wets go ive been using Metzelers, similar tread to Pirelli and i have had no probs with them at all. Again i havent had to look for some recently so i wood be interested in a reasonable source if any one knows of one ?? Jools |
Posted By: kiwi_rsvr
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 21:30
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Just a thought did you reset the suspension to match the change in tyres ? |
Posted By: jools
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 19:09
| You are probably right, but I really wouldnt know where to start mate?? Most of my previous bikes in the past 20 odd years have been a pile of crap so i tend to ride around or through the handling problems. I really should make an effort in trying to understand how to set up the bike, it might save a few bruises. But we,re dealing with a lifes time of bad habbits here. Turn on, Get on, an Thrash it!! Jools |
Posted By: kiwi_rsvr
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 21:19
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Thats how we raced in the 80's, usually with a hangover and some form of narcotics in the blood stream !! Yeah you really need at least understand the basic dynamics (not attempting to teach anyone how to suck eggs) but if the suspension is set very stiff and you have a tyre with very stiff sidewalls the tyre will skate and slide when cold and disintergrate when hot and so on
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jools wrote:Posted By: Millemille
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 21:44
Anyone that didn't no you would think that you no wot your talking about... course we no better.;-) |
Posted By: kiwi_rsvr
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 21:51
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Love you too Miss K
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Posted By: Millemille
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 22:00
| Lol its all in jest you no that scott i'm just a bit bord at the mo no work, no boyfriend and I think i'm starting to lose the plot.:-P |
Posted By: kiwi_rsvr
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 22:27
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What do you mean "starting" ?   Well you could always venture forth to Chelmsford (Duke Street in particular) and i'll buy you a cup of tea
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Posted By: Millemille
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 23:22
Cheeky sod;-) Let me whens a good time and i'll pop down.:-) |
Posted By: kiwi_rsvr
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2010 at 09:32
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Any time between 12 midday and 2pm is okay by me.
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Posted By: Millemille
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2010 at 09:53
| Ok i'll let you no when i'll be up. |
Posted By: jools
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2010 at 18:42
| Wanted: Lessons on how to suck eggs. Ive got to start somewhere.. Jools |
Posted By: kiwi_rsvr
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2010 at 20:36
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Hi Jools,
The 1st step is to put the bike back to standard factory settings , even if you think it is , its worth checking, including setting the static sag.
You will then need to take it for a ride to understand what it is now doing (I am not sure if your bike is track only but suggest it would be best doing this during a track day if no road use intended).
You will soon know (2-3 laps) what its doing but you need to be able to remember so I break it down like this.
Under braking
Under acceleration
Mid corner
Going over bumps
Tyre wear
Its easy to make "generalised assumption's" about suspension settings but that has pitfalls for a track bike.
As a rough guide.
Pull in the front brake and apply your full weight onto the front suspension, release your weight at the lowest point. Ideally, the bike will spring rapidly back into the upright position. The front forks should be adjusted so that the bike springs back evenly and stops at once. The bike should not bounce, neither should it shoot up roughly or rise back up very slowly.
Push down on the rear of the bike so that the spring compresses as far as you can get it, releasing it at the lowest point. The bike should rise back up with a smooth and flowing motion (controlled by the shock absorber). Too rapid spring back is undesirable, so is bouncing or a very slow spring reaction (too much rebound damping).
Sit on the motorcycle in your normal riding position. This will apply normal static load to the springs. The bike should move evenly on the springs at both the front and the rear. If this is not the case the adjustment between front and rear is not in balance.
If the bike shows normal behaviour in the above tests your suspension and damping seem to be in order, but 'standard'.
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Posted By: jools
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2010 at 18:39
| Thanks for that, i really appreciate your advice. The next time im on the track i,ll give it a go. Not sure i,ll be a dab hand but i,ll give it a bash. Cheers Jools |
Posted By: chrisduke
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2010 at 20:32
| Anyone tried the Pirelli dicablo supercoresa BSB's, i have them on my 848 on the road and they are awesome, may try a set on my trackbike this year? |
Posted By: jools
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2010 at 00:55
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Ive not used them Chris but i have used corsa pros a lot on the track. Ive found them a good tyre performance wise but they tend not to wear very wel, i tend to go through a set pretty quickly, 1-2 trackdays depending on the weather and which track. Croft is particularly harsh on tyres so i usually use a set therel and they are not cheap which is not good for my pocket.
Be interested to see how your tyres do on the track?? Most good road tryes are more than good enough for trackdays me thinks. Jools
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