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Got me bigbore kit now |
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redratbike
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The Collector Messiah Joined: 07 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 16331 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 20:09 |
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A gamelan is a traditional musical ensemble from Indonesia, typically from the islands of Java and Bali, featuring a variety of instruments such as metallophones, xylophones, kendang (drums) and gongs; bamboo flutes, bowed and plucked strings. Vocalists may also be included. For most Indonesians, gamelan music is an integral part of Indonesian culture.[1] The term refers more to the set of instruments than to the players of those instruments. A gamelan is a set of instruments as a distinct entity, built and tuned to stay together – instruments from different gamelan are generally not interchangeable. |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10767 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 22:48 |
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'kin 'ell, the sort of stuff you can learn by hanging out on forums
![]() I hope to be able to use my new found knowledge at some time, but knowing me I'll probably pronounce it wrong and end up referring to something completely different. Just as a heads Up you may be interested in the writings and pics posted by Micah Shoemaker (the head tech at AF1) on their forum regarding his engine builds and how to's detailing big bores,porting ,cams etc. I've culled an extensive library of pics and how's over the last couple of years,just wondering about getting another engine to play with now. |
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www.apworkshops.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 23:19 |
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OK, some pics......Brummy....hold onto yer pants!!
Left one is cleaned, right one is a bit swarffy/mucky. Painted Pistons : The bigger bore one (left hand) is WAY lighter...also has another groove round the side between 1 and 2. Pistons from another POV - new on left, old on right The rings, 1st ring Old on the left, new on the right 2nd Rings Oil ring/scraper - VERY different...... I know....pure sex.... ![]() |
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Factory 04
Big Bore Whore |
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 23:28 |
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Close up of the pistons (upside down so heights can be compared)
New on right, old on left....after the photo shoot, I got to clean it again: And a little home for the parts.....the little boxes hold the rings and pin. You OK Brummy????
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Factory 04
Big Bore Whore |
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NickyBoy1984
Moto GP Alien
Exhaust freak! Joined: 24 Dec 2011 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 10532 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 03:29 |
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Y U M M Y
NickyBoy
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www.rsvr.net
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk |
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 15:09 |
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Brummy, is that a standard engine stand you have or a special? Is the engine bracket home made??? If it is, do you have one of those nice diagrams with size/dimensions?
![]() I think I want a stand now....be proper proffesional an all that jazz...... I already got the DTI thing made up, very nice, looks just like yours.....
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Factory 04
Big Bore Whore |
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BrummyMax
Moto GP Alien
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 300 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 17:38 |
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You can't beat a piston with a short skirt on! Very nice!
Your rings are very similar to the Honda SP2 rings I used on my build. The head gaskets are probably the same design, but slightly bored out. Mine are Cometic too. Do yours measure 100 or 102? My engine stand is a cheap stand with a custom adaptor for the Rotax lump. I fabbed it myself complete with pidgeon sh*t welding. It's based on KZMille's design off of AF1. I'll try and knock up some pics. You are welcome to borrow the lot though. |
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BrummyMax
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 300 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 17:39 |
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You can't beat a piston with a short skirt on! Very nice!
Your rings are very similar to the Honda SP2 rings I used on my build. The head gaskets are probably the same design, but slightly bored out. Mine are Cometic too. Do yours measure 100 or 102? My engine stand is a cheap stand with a custom adaptor for the Rotax lump. I fabbed it myself complete with pidgeon sh*t welding. It's based on KZMille's design off of AF1. I'll try and knock up some pics. You are welcome to borrow the lot though. |
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redratbike
Moderator Group
The Collector Messiah Joined: 07 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 16331 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 18:14 |
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Blimey,so good you had to say it twice
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 18:22 |
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Thats wot i thought.....thanks brummy, i think i need a welder and some offcuts now....
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Factory 04
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 28 Oct 2013 at 09:06 |
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First problem hit. What I thought would be plug and play just isn't. I started off with very swarfy bores, so cleaned and painted. Next, yesterday I started matching rings to the bores...oh dear.
Both first rings exactly the same, in one bore the ends touch, which is ok, you can grind the correct gap in....however, in the other bore, the end gap is .58 before you start..i need a gap of .43. cant make it smaller. Using pi, i estimate the bore size difference to be about .2 mm This is not good as both pistons are nob on in size, they fit snuggly in the good bore, but rattle about in the bad bore. Piston to bore should be machine matched with a gap of about .1 Add .2 and the bad bore is about .3 So what have i learnt...MEASURE MEASURE MEASURE when you receive the kit...even simply: piston to bore clearance and stick the first ring in and see if it needs grinding to set. Ill now have to have a chat with the supplier, but as it stands, I'm not putting a cylinder together with that match place and a ring gap I cant set. Shame really as I set up the good bore before finding out about the bad one...couple of hours there...
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Factory 04
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 08:47 |
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More measurements taken..
As already said, skirts on pistons bang on to the 100th of a mill. piston to cylinder clearance on each bore... 1st one i matched up gap was about .1mm, this is ok until i rotated the piston 90 degrees and it jammed. What was my good bore is oval. 2nd one, the slack one, had 0.275mm clearance, all the way up, and it was round too. So both my bores have failed a quality inspection...one too big, one oval. If you guys ever attempt a BB as a home project, make sure you measure everything before you start. Its not a complete disaster as I'm sure ill be able to exchange the bores. I'll keep you posted.
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Factory 04
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 09:25 |
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Somewhat questionable QC if they can ship tash oval or incorrectly sized sleeves.
Hope they step up. Have you switched pistons in the bores ? Your piston may be oval and not the bore. |
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fusebox
Admins Group
Aprilia performance boss bloke Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: the shop..again Status: Offline Points: 3083 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 10:21 |
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tapmyhead
can you call me at the shop please buddy? ive been following the thread for a while and theres a few bits of information that I reckon you might need to know which will help in this build, the bits that are specific to the rotax engine! I don't know if you got fitting instructions with your kit? Cheers Griff 01827285500 |
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 11:24 |
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Both pistons are good, same in both bores. Not saying Someone slipped up, just that something doesnt seem right and i dont want to build a grenade with me riding it....i appreciate my knowledge isnt the best but i do try to understand everything as i go along. And I really dont mind everyone chipping in with there views, i really dont. And im not about to berate anyone either, ive been in engineering all my life and ive learnt that sh*t does happen even against best intentions....its how you deal with it and get it sorted no blame at all! im really hoping ive made some school boy errors, because i want to learn.
Keeping you posted...as usual. off to a thing now.
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Factory 04
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fusebox
Admins Group
Aprilia performance boss bloke Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: the shop..again Status: Offline Points: 3083 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 11:28 |
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totally agree buddy!
no need to get into mud slinging, its not nice and as long as situations are rectified then spotty dog! did you know about the piston offsets?? this does have a bearing on this situation.... |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 11:46 |
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Ohh this is getting interesting.
Does the Rotax have an offset piston Griff ? Wouldn't that only affect piston fit when they are connected to the conrods ? Tap, i'm sure Mark will be on the case if it is a manufacture issue. |
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fusebox
Admins Group
Aprilia performance boss bloke Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: the shop..again Status: Offline Points: 3083 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 12:06 |
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yes mate it does!
depending on which engine you have and which aftermarket pistons youve got to which way round you fit the new pistons! im sure this isnt causing this issue in particular but it will cause issues if they are fitted the wrong way round! just wanted to help... |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 12:22 |
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You do realise myself and Garin are invading Tamworth Hq whilst you do his Big bore ?
So we can get the low down on the fitting first hand. I am memorising my best jokes in preparation. (short list) |
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fusebox
Admins Group
Aprilia performance boss bloke Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: the shop..again Status: Offline Points: 3083 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 13:18 |
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this will be a larf......
not my jokes anyway...mine are sh*t! |
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 14:09 |
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Jeez!! Piston offsets...whatever next???
When i started this i thought i could just.lob them shiney bits together, a couple if white knukkles tightening the head then brummy mentioned ring gaps, then i bought a thick book, then i noticed the bore thing, which might be sommit or nuttin....my head hurts, especailly having to hop from inches to mills all the time!! Ive been on some steep learners before and this is up there with the best!! Hats off to guys that do this for a living, thats for sure. Hats off to everyone trying to help me out too, phone calls to follow, sitting in car with littkeun who is asleep, wife doing the ashes thing... |
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426hemi
Premium Member owner of the big bore! Joined: 30 Mar 2012 Location: cannock Status: Offline Points: 5795 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 16:53 |
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Is the design with the offset piston known as desax so that when the power stroke travels down it is more inline with the big end on the crank?
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davidrsurfer
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Joined: 22 Feb 2011 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 2535 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 16:56 |
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Is there no arrow or F on the piston crown then if they are offset?
Does the manufacturers spec say both bores are the same finished size or should one have a greater clearance to allow for heat differentials & expansion? Yuor supplier should be able to answer.
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Motorcycle friendly self catering holiday apartment Acorn Studio. See us at Air bnb.
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 18:11 |
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Good news..sending the bores back (thats not the good news). Had an excellent talk with the supplier, top drawer for sure (thats the good news). Sending them back for a checkup, hopefully I'm not going mad...equally chuffed that help is always a phone call and a forum away.
Thanks for the feedback, and keep it coming too. I wonder if the jap boys get this level of support???? :-)
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BrewBitch
Moto3 racer
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Tamworth Status: Offline Points: 867 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 18:12 |
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Tap!
look forward to it mate, you shall go to the ball!
426Hemi
impressive! your the man!!!
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You Only Have One Life.....Live It! |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 18:18 |
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I think it has lots to do with better alignment resulting in less wear both crank and piston/bore
From what i have read the better angle also reduces the length of time that the piston is static in the bore at the top and bottom of the stroke increasing performance also. |
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 19:48 |
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I'm confused!!!
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 19:52 |
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Lol. Welcome to my world = confused.com |
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fusebox
Admins Group
Aprilia performance boss bloke Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: the shop..again Status: Offline Points: 3083 |
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Posted: 30 Oct 2013 at 09:27 |
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come on lads it had been a long day!
tapmyhead chat soon...we'll run through a few things that you may not have picked up on, to make sure that your build goes a little easier. knowledge is power! heheh! 426 hemi warren = clever bastard! ill get back in my box now..... |
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tapmyhed
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 31 Oct 2013 at 18:10 |
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Okay dokey then. Bores and pistons in the post today. Mark is a top bloke, will sort it out for me then send the bits back. Top service and he contacted me before I had a chance to talk to him....if only you got that kind of service from everyone else outside of the rsv club!
Anyways, fusee me love muffin, I'll try and give u a call tomorrow. Dang, this madness is contagious....
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