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Yet more starting problems. 03 RSV |
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r896neo 
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Location: Belfast Status: Offline Points: 94 |
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 Topic: Yet more starting problems. 03 RSVPosted: 01 Jun 2008 at 13:50 |
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Firstly apologies as i have posted a similar post before but here's more info. This problem happens frequently, probably ever other time i try to start my 03 RSV with 5800 miles. I'd appreciate if someone could tell me the stuff that is normal as well as possible ideas on the problem(s). I assume that you dont need the clutch in to start the bike like a suzuki?I turn the key, the fuel pump whirs into life and primes. Fuel light and oil led come on for a second then go off. EFI appears on dash then goes off after a second or two. I hit the starter and the starter turns fine and as far as i can tell it is also turning over the engine but the bike does not even try to fire just turns over. I try the button again in bursts of 3 seconds or so with 30sec between and after 4/5 minutes of trying ignition on and off kill switch on and off, gentle bump in gear (not bump start just a nudge) to turns the engine a touch. None of which seem to work and then i try her again and after 1 second on the starter it fires healthy as ever.
The bike runs very well and smoothly other than this so i dont think its injectors, plugs are all fine and in pretty good nick. Fall sensor works tested with multimeter and connections are sound. All fluids are new and correct levels. EFI diag check yielded nothing.
The best i can describe it is like a cut out signal is being intermittantly sent from something during the starting process. Because when it does start it starts exactly as you'd expect.
If i take it to a dealer, who is quite far away will putting on a dealer diag, axone etc find the root? Sorry for the frighteningly long post. Need to get this baby reliable for the commute.
Edited by r896neo - 01 Jun 2008 at 17:17 |
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rsv1000punk
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: nottingham Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Posted: 01 Jun 2008 at 18:03 |
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do you have any alarm system on the bike if you have i recomend ripping it out i had all sort of problems with my bike and spent alot of money trying to sort it out in the end i just ripped the alarm/immobiliser out of the loom and have never had a problem since and it sounds alot healthyer turning over i think alarms just put too much drain on the bike
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up the f**kin punx
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r896neo
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Location: Belfast Status: Offline Points: 94 |
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Posted: 01 Jun 2008 at 19:38 |
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no alarm and i agree with your sentiments, they are a bug**r. Anyway after most of the afternoon spent with a multimeter and contact cleaner I checked electrically the; Pick up, Ig coils, throttle valve potentiometer, intake pressure sensor, injectors, engine stop off relay and fuel pump relay. The one irregularity is the readings from the fuel pump relay so i think the fuel pump may be playing up somehow. I then tryed to start the bike and turned it over in 5, 5 second bursts. I then quickly ripped out a plug to find it was bone dry?? Would this confirm my suspicions about the pump or would turning it over for 25 seconds not flood it enough to wet up the plug? Cheers Edited by r896neo - 01 Jun 2008 at 20:36 |
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andy 54
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Ayrshire Status: Offline Points: 131 |
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Posted: 02 Jun 2008 at 05:46 |
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you should be able to smell fuel in the exhaust if it does not start after trying 2 or 3 times.
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r896neo
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Posted: 02 Jun 2008 at 08:38 |
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cheers but i'd get a more definitive answer if i could be sure the plugs should be wet?
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Spoonz
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 02 Jun 2008 at 12:53 |
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If the fuel pressure drops or isn't there at all the dash will show an efi error so if the light goes out then you have pressure. It will usually at least try and start even with 1 cylinder so that probably rules out injectors as chances of both being duff are slim. For the low cost i would change the plugs. They can develop faults even with low mileage. also have a good look at the caps as they can crack and arc. And then maybe the starter solenoid for a Yam one as it's 100amp rated and gives the engine a much healthier kick when turning over. |
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r896neo
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Posted: 02 Jun 2008 at 20:34 |
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thanks y'all, fitted new plugs and tested all the HT leads and all give a strong spark. I'll leave her on the optimate overnight and try to see if thats cured it. Watch this space
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r896neo
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Posted: 03 Jun 2008 at 13:43 |
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tried her today but no joy. It's turning over fine and getting a good spark from the new plugs and checked HT leads and coils so surely this seems like a fueling problem? When i turn the ignition on, the pump whirs and primes as normal. But when i measure the fuel pump relay with the multimeter, (while it is connected as normal in situ) when powered it still gives a small resistance. (200 ohms as opposed to 0)
When i switched the engine stop relay with it to check the relay is ok, the same thing happens and i measure the two outgoing load terminals of the relay i still get a reading of small but definate resistance. This is making me think there is an electrical fault in the fuel pump giving this reading of a small resistance. is this possible or even plausible?
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Spoonz
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Posted: 03 Jun 2008 at 14:40 |
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take the airbox lid off and look down the throttle bodies. you should be able to see if there is fuel being injected or not. check for trapped or pinched fuel lines from the tank as well. Edited by Spoonz - 03 Jun 2008 at 14:41 |
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r896neo
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Posted: 03 Jun 2008 at 16:31 |
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Had a look down throttle bodies whilst turning it over and there seems to be no fuel at all. Fuel pump is coming out as I think this may be the cause because i noticed on the 3-way connector that powers the fuel pump the middle of the 3 wires has been cut and crimped back togther at some point. I'll check for blockages in the lines and filters and pump.
The blue and green wires are +ive and neg from what i can understand from my manual but what does the orange and black middle one go to? Thanks.
Edited by r896neo - 03 Jun 2008 at 16:46 |
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Spoonz
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Posted: 03 Jun 2008 at 18:13 |
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Other wires for fuel level sensor.
Not convinced it's the pump though. The pressure sensor is on the throttle body so pressure must be present at least to that point or the efi wouldn't go out on the dash. Stranger things have happened though.
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r896neo
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Posted: 03 Jun 2008 at 19:20 |
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yea i go it going and it runs great when it runs. I sorted out that dodgy crimp and though i think that was not the ultimate cause, for now it seems to be starting more often than not. It is definately some sort of loose connection or intermitent fault because when it doesn't start i check the throttle bodies and there's no fuel which for me confirms it's something to do with the pump unit, maybe not the pump but as you say fuel level sensor maybe?
Bloody difficult to find but i certainly am learning about the new bike!!
 Any ideas where to start? i think the tank needs to come right off and i'll disect the fuel pump assembly.
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Spoonz
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Posted: 03 Jun 2008 at 22:25 |
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sounds like it's had an alarm at some point as they usually tap into the fuel pump wiring. The sensor wiring wouldn't stop it starting. Other possibility is what happened to my mate Chris.
Read his story here.
If you feel it's similar then i can put you in touch.
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r896neo
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Posted: 04 Jun 2008 at 18:27 |
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thats very helpful thank you spoonz,
I was thinking something similar to this as there is a small resistance between the pump supply + and - when they are getting power which made me think bad connection but as far as i can tell the pump is pressurizing fine everytime making me think its the fuel level sensor or wiring. the low fuel light has blinked on once after a non start.
Thats helpful too about the alarm because the loom has been split and taped back up just where the fuel pump connector exits the bundle so some work has been done there. I'm going to split the fuel pump unit from the tank at the weekend and find out exactly whats up. i only wish i had a spare loom.
Do you know where i could get my hands on spare terminals to replace the ones i may need to hack apart! Just the white 2 way and 3 way crimped ones.
Depending on what i find i may get his details from you.
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r896neo
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Posted: 11 Jun 2008 at 18:13 |
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after much head scratching elimination multi-meter bashing etc i finally decided that there was only one possibility left and low and behold when i slotted in a new ECU (not brand new of course, my children need wine) the problem seems to have magically disappeared??
Well thanks so much to all who helped me out with ideas and as some final parting wisdom could someone tell me the safe way to change my ECU map chip over to the new unit? I don't want to destroy it with static
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Spoonz
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Posted: 11 Jun 2008 at 23:09 |
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Make sure you are earthed ideally.
It's also possible the chip was the fault in the original ecu.
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r896neo
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Posted: 15 Jun 2008 at 18:19 |
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You as ever are right spoonz i put the standard chip from the ecu i bought into my seemingly faulty ecu and it all works fine. So i am assuming the 'haga' chip which came with my bike for the RSV titanium EVO exhaust was faulty. When i lifted the chip and piggyback base out (not the cream coloured soldered in base, just the chip carrier thing) there was 3 pins missing on the base and 1 on chip so this seems likely as the fault! Is it possible to get a replacement chip and base? I'd of course prefer the actual chip for the can but that may be hard to get so what would you do in my position? An eprom of some other type if so what?
Cheers
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Spoonz
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Posted: 15 Jun 2008 at 22:18 |
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not sure of the availability of the Aprilia chip or cost to be honest. I would consider the Gabro or something which seems to have good reviews from Sabre etc.
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Sabre
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Posted: 16 Jun 2008 at 09:58 |
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Ive got a spare chip you can have for a beer token if you want. Not the best but at least as good as the standard chip. Ive also got a TI chip with an exhaust to match but that is more beer tokens.
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andy 54
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Ayrshire Status: Offline Points: 131 |
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Posted: 16 Jun 2008 at 12:00 |
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The chip you want has RSV Titanium written on the top of the chip.It comes with the Evo exhaust.
Weird you've had problems to, I had this chip/exhaust set up on my old 99 mille and the only time the bike failed in 6 years,backfiring, EFI message.non start etc was when this chip failed.I eventually found out after a lot of head scratching that one of the prongs on the green base had melted where it goes into the ecu. Re soldered the prong to base and all was ok. If you have some missing as mine was they may still be in the ecu pcb and can be pushed out as I did and resoldered. May keep you going till you find a replacement. I don't know if these race chips are built to do thousands of miles on the road? Suspect not. |
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r896neo
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Posted: 16 Jun 2008 at 17:54 |
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yea i heard good things about Gabro's chip, What is the deal with that? Just register on AF1 forum and PM him? anyone got one and how do you rate it and or how much was it delivered? also what is the deal with generic looking eproms on ebay and a factory eprom pro i hear mentioned if someone could clarify the common options that'd be sweet.
Oh and Sabre is it an rsv ti evo chip you have spare? do you have the piggyback/ base mounting bit for the chip as well? cheers. Edited by r896neo - 16 Jun 2008 at 17:58 |
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Sabre
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Posted: 17 Jun 2008 at 08:47 |
Yes its the complete deal.....Ti EVo from RSV '00 with piggy back. I run a Gabro Chip. Gabro is an Italian tuner who posts on AF1. He will "nock up" a chip to suit your bike taking into account the mods you have done to it. I told him I run a 00 Mille with open air box and race can sent 60 euros( I think) and the chip was at my door within 6 days. The chip works VERY well, giving more power in the mid range which compliments the air box. It also activated the trim pots on the ECU allowing for more adjustment.
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r896neo
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Posted: 17 Jun 2008 at 18:02 |
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cool badgers box is the next mod on my list so do you reckon i'd be better off getting gabro's? do you rate it over the RSV ti chip that came with the can? Also what are these trim pots you mention? And last but not least will the CO need sync'd etc if p[utting in gabro's chip?
Thanks
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r896neo wrote: