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biff View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 15:02
Hi all
Took my bike out for the first time in several years yesterday after a bit of an overhaul and mot. After 40-50 miles it started running lumpy. After a fuel stop and an A road blast, it started cutting out momentarily. Off the man roads and onto the b roads it got progressively worse, I had almost reached my destination so decided to get there and let it cool off. It was 25-30 degrees all day yesterday.

Returning home the first 30 miles were as if it hadn’t happened but then it started again, and got really bad towards home. I got home (just) and it was cutting out regularly in the last few miles to the point where it wouldn’t fire up after I stopped and got off to open the garage. There wasn’t enough power to turn it over. Total mileage 180 so I was thinking clogged injectors, old fuel, clogged fuel pump type stuff can be ruled out.

After much googling, I thought it must be the infamous stator issue, it’s a 96 gen 2 rsv mille. So I have been out with the multimeter as got the following readings:

Fully recharged battery- 13.5v
Cold idle 13.9v
3000rpm cold- 13.99v
Warm idle 13.95v
3000rpm warm 14v

All pairs across the cable from the stator read pretty much the same at 23v
All pairs across the stator at 3000rpm read c63-64v

According the video posted by Griff, this means the stator looks to be ok?

So am I looking at a duff reg rec? Ie it’s taking a voltage from the stator but not converting it to dc and charging the battery. The bike was running on the voltage from the battery which was slowly depleted on the trip to the point it hardly had enough to run (ergo the cutting out) and was so low by the end there wasn’t enough power to turn the engine over.

Thanks in advance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Willintolearn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 15:24
I agree that it looks like reg/rec issues. My gen 2 shows 14.3 to 14.6V.
If the stator is good - which it appears to be, from your readings, then I’d recommend a replacement of the reg/rec with a series MOSFET one that will help keep the stator cooler:
Years of the big K then an Ape - one with twin Akras, AP air box mod, twin NRVs, 42t rear sprocket, great big 12V cables, 200A solenoid, 40A MOSFET r/r + headlight switch + stator cooling + PCIII map.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 15:48
It’s worth popping your fuel cap and checking the breathers aren’t blocked, it will cause a vacuum while riding and starve fuel but leave it turned off a while and air will get back in until you run it a while again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 18:37
Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

It’s worth popping your fuel cap and checking the breathers aren’t blocked, it will cause a vacuum while riding and starve fuel but leave it turned off a while and air will get back in until you run it a while again.

That’s a really interesting thought and I shall defo check those but once I got home, there was no juice at all in the battery to crack the starter motor…. Which is why I ruled out fuel issues. Due to the time it’s been standing, I considered things like blocked fuel filter, dodgy fuel (but I fuelled up at 2 shell stations) and bunged up injectors due to lack of use but always came back to electrical issues as the cause due to the flat battery when I got home
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 19:53
Ever replaced the in tank fuel filter or the ‘tea bag’ filter? 
The fuel gets waxy
And leaves traces (the ethanol) and it’s like a fine grit. When you ride for a while it can get fuel starvation and keeps cutting out. 

Seen this more times than I care to remember now 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 20:11
Originally posted by wigginsjp wigginsjp wrote:

Ever replaced the in tank fuel filter or the ‘tea bag’ filter? 
The fuel gets waxy
And leaves traces (the ethanol) and it’s like a fine grit. When you ride for a while it can get fuel starvation and keeps cutting out. 

Seen this more times than I care to remember now 



No I haven’t- always relied in the early years on dealer service. Would you mind pointing me to a thread with some knowledge and know how? I reckon I might just do these and the breather hoses at the same time anyway….
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2023 at 20:47
I’d say it’s unlikely it’s ever been done. 

Drain the tank and remove it. Cheap hand suction pump does the job. Take out the fuel pump from the base of the tank and then you will see the inline filter and on the base plate is a black plastic cover. Remove the cover and you will see the tea bag style filter. 
Clean that with fresh fuel and a tooth brush. Replace the grey plastic one with a new OEM one. 

Refit and torque bolts down to specification. Don’t use a silicone sealant at all but it’s worth replacing the rubber OEM gasket. 
AP sell the parts online. 

The breather hoses are under the tank. Unscrew the nipples and ensure they are free from dirt. A small drill cleans them out but take them out first. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 11:13
Some good advice here but either you have two separate issues - battery draining and a fuel issue - or it's electrical only as you first suggested. Unless you feel you may have drained the battery by the multiple starts?


Originally posted by wigginsjp wigginsjp wrote:


Drain the tank and remove it. Cheap hand suction pump does the job.

If you can get a spare fuel return line off ebay complete with the line break connector then you can use this to drain the tank. It's what I do and it's so easy.


Originally posted by wigginsjp wigginsjp wrote:

Take out the fuel pump from the base of the tank and then you will see the inline filter and on the base plate is a black plastic cover. Remove the cover and you will see the tea bag style filter. 
Clean that with fresh fuel and a tooth brush. Replace the grey plastic one with a new OEM one. 

Refit and torque bolts down to specification. Don’t use a silicone sealant at all but it’s worth replacing the rubber OEM gasket. 
AP sell the parts online.

If you are going to do this I would get the upgrade kit AP have just created that replaces the in-tank fuel lines with ethanol resistant hoses. Comes with new filter, sealing ring etc. Almost twenty years and the ethanol attack and it's only a matter of time before they fail. I'm planning to do mine over the winter. 



Originally posted by wigginsjp wigginsjp wrote:

The breather hoses are under the tank. Unscrew the nipples and ensure they are free from dirt. A small drill cleans them out but take them out first.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 12:31
Thank you for the links legend. 

Ref battery fully charge it and drop test it
On a multimeter as the engine cranks over. Could just be a worn battery as the stator and reg test okay. 
Is it a genuine 150amp solenoid of note ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 13:00
More great advice (however you might be over estimating my spannering if capabilities!) and thank you. 

Google last night suggested ways I might be able to test the reg rec and making sure the diodes are still working. That’s tonight’s job, if nothing else to rule that out, but the cold start with a recharged battery and testing with a multi meter suggests it’s sending a voltage to the battery to recharge. If the reg rec was faulty, the fault would be noticeable at cold but it would have to stop charging once it got really hot and so the battery drains.

Rang AP this morning. Spoke to Griff. He agreed that it didn’t sound like the stator or reg rec and something fuel related. He suggested the fuel pump armature might struggle to rotate as it got hot and therefore resulted in fuel starvation. He suggested I do an amp strain test on the fuel pump to see if it’s pulling too much current. That’s now getting researched as I haven’t a clue how to do this- what I have found out is that you run a multimeter across the fuel pump fuse and measure current at cold and hot…. Presumably if the pump is pulling way more current than it should, this will contribute to the battery charge slowly getting lower to the point it couldn’t discharge.

So those are tonight’s 2 jobs and depending on the results, will probably be back again in the morning. I am kinda hoping I might identify this as a fuel pump problem, so simply swap the whole lot out….. let’s see!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 13:58
Originally posted by wigginsjp wigginsjp wrote:

Thank you for the links legend. 

Ref battery fully charge it and drop test it
On a multimeter as the engine cranks over. Could just be a worn battery as the stator and reg test okay. 
Is it a genuine 150amp solenoid of note ? 

Will drop test it tonight

Brand new battery last week

Solenoid is as per original (dunno what that is) but I. Have had the bike from new and never replaced it’s 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hangry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 14:59
Isn't there an something you do with the key after you put a battery on? otherwise it can drain it just a thought and it's free.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 17:19
The technical bulletin from Aprilia but less relevant to an in use drain. 

INTRODUCTION:
The following procedure must be performed when refitting the battery onto a vehicle with the MARELLI instrument panel (identifiable by the + and - buttons to the left of the display). This procedure is necessary to prevent the instrument panel from remaining in the "awaiting memorisation of 2nd key", causing it to consume 20 times more current than normal.
The problem is caused by the instrument self-resetting and then waiting for a key memorisation procedure (even if it has already been performed), remaining in standby mode with this function still active. The resulting high current consumption will drain the battery completely within 3 or 4 days if the vehicle is not used.



PROCEDURE:
After disconnecting the poles of a battery on an RSV 1000 V2 with Marelli instrument panel, after reconnecting, perform a key-on, wait at least 15 seconds without starting the engine then switch the ignition off.

For more precise testing, connect a multimeter set to current measurement to the battery poles: at key-on, current consumption drops from 45 milliamps to 1-2 milliamps after approximately 15 seconds. 
Obviously, when the multimeter is disconnected, it is as if the battery poles were disconnected again, so the aforementioned procedure must be repeated without the multimeter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 17:39
Thanks @spoonz and @hangry. I was not aware of this at all. So perhaps another option to explain things was the fact that while I started my day with a full battery, I had not performed this procedure before setting off so over the whole days mileage, it slowly drained the battery over time to the point the stator and reg/rec couldn’t keep up? …… thus the lack of power in the battery to turn it over at the end of the day?

Just so I am clear on the procedure. Turn the ignition on, leave for 15 secs min, turn off, remove key with out firing the bike up? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hangry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 17:53
Yep that's it and if I remember correctly when removing and replacing a battery don't leave the key  in the bike put in your pocket until battery connection complete especially on earlier models  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 18:28
Originally posted by biff biff wrote:

Thanks @spoonz and @hangry. I was not aware of this at all. So perhaps another option to explain things was the fact that while I started my day with a full battery, I had not performed this procedure before setting off so over the whole days mileage, it slowly drained the battery over time to the point the stator and reg/rec couldn’t keep up? …… thus the lack of power in the battery to turn it over at the end of the day?

Just so I am clear on the procedure. Turn the ignition on, leave for 15 secs min, turn off, remove key with out firing the bike up? 

I doubt this is your problem as it won’t drain a battery on a running bike, only when parked up but it won’t hurt to try. Yes your right on the procedure 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badapple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 19:50
Originally posted by Hangry Hangry wrote:

Yep that's it and if I remember correctly when removing and replacing a battery don't leave the key  in the bike put in your pocket until battery connection complete especially on earlier models  

Exactly that but only effects the early gen2s
I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2023 at 21:19
And the results are in but I am none the wiser.

Key procedure done twice to make sure.
All 3 stator phases measured and all register 1.2ohms

Ignition off. Hooked up to charger. Battery voltage 13.6v
Ignition off. Charger disconnected. Battery voltage 13.55v
Ignition on, bike not running. Drops quickly to 12.6v then stabilises.
Ignition off. Battery voltage climbs back to 13.2v
Ignition on, fire up bike. Idle battery voltage 13.9v
Rev to 5000 rpm. Battery voltage 13.99v
Headlights and instrument cluster show steady light and doesn’t get brighter or dimmer when revved
Left to idle for 5-10mins until hot- battery voltage 14.04v
Fans now regularly kicking in - battery voltage 13.75v when fans kick in
At no point do I get any fuel starvation or lumpy running.
Turn off and leave for 2 hours without trickle charger on. Battery voltage 13.2v

Having googled the amp strain test Griff recommended, I can’t do it. I believe I would need to take the relevant fuse out of the position, then read the current passing through that circuit. The fuse is rated at 15A and is fuse D which includes the speed sensor, fuel pump, relay, starter and lamda probe. My multimeter is rated max 10A so this is getting beyond me.

Nothing from tonight gives a clue and I can’t replicate the problem in the garage. So the next step is to ride local circuits within 5-10m of the house for an hour to see if it happens again. Then as soon as it does, get a multimeter across it to see what the battery is like and whether I am getting a charge from the reg rec. My working hypothesis is that the key procedure wasn’t done for the trip and so with approx 5 hours of riding when the dash was pulling 20x power, it was enough to slowly drain the battery to the point it wasn’t sparking or driving the fuel pump leading to the cutting out. If I can’t trigger it with 60-90 mins of riding locally, the problem has gone away…. Potentially 

If the problem does reoccur, we are back to hypothesis 2- excess current being drawn by the fuel pump as it’s having to work harder when it gets really hot, which then drains the battery. Then I am off to a local friendly mechanic with decent tools and experience to see if we can do the amp strain test.

Either way, the tank will be coming off some point soon to do fuel filters. It’s just whether I need to do that now or an over winter job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 10:54
Originally posted by biff biff wrote:

My working hypothesis is that the key procedure wasn’t done for the trip and so with approx 5 hours of riding when the dash was pulling 20x power, it was enough to slowly drain the battery to the point it wasn’t sparking or driving the fuel pump leading to the cutting out..


As Spoonz suggests above, as long as the charging circuit is working ok the battery wouldn't drain during a ride even if the battery re-connection process hadn't been carried out correctly as it is being constantly charged sufficiently to maintain it. However the in-ride test you suggest will give you peace of mind over this.

The more you say, the more it sounds like fuel starvation to me. I would focus on this first unless you come across something obvious.

Clean out the breather lines first starting with the aluminium adaptors at the base of the tank and maybe some strimmer line down the tubes if needed, make sure that air and water can easily escape through the relevant lines.

Then have a look at the filters inside the tank if this doesn't solve it (But definitely fit the upgrade kit over the winter as you suggest).

If it's been standing for years maybe some injector cleaner in the tank won't do any harm either (Although not your main issue I'm sure but old fuel and ethanol aren't great). How much prep did you do after the layup? Did you check plugs, air intake etc. Did you drain the tank before putting new fuel in? If there is water in the tank this will gather in the bottom (Fuel is lighter than water) and eventually stop the bike. There may even be a family of mice in your airbox!
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 12:30
Thanks @legend88

There is a general consensus here for checking fuel system. So it’s gonna go on the list. I need to get a hand pump and new fuel can from screw fix to do this - so it will be a few days or so before I get organised enough to do this. I will do as suggested and check breathers and check the adapters on the base of the tank.

If I drain the tank into a new can, it will be new fuel but will I be able to spot any water? Are there any tell tale signs? 

I did fill up twice in the trip with fresh fuel so would that 150 or so miles not cleared the tank of any water? (Prob not doing the bike much good)

FYI the bike was static for a year and so I did check oil and coolant levels (it had oil and filter change only couple hindered miles ago) brakes, but didn’t check plugs or for mice! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 13:04
In addition as they easy to see. 
06 Gen 2 most likely will have the second brown stator plug in the centre of the V between the throttle bodies. I had a yucky looking one that was causing electrical issues but only when hot. 
Also the big white plug from the solenoid (goes from solenoid backward not the solenoid one itself) that connects under the rear seat near the rear lamp unit, before going to the main 30amp fuses. See how that is. I had corrosion in one and it would get hot and cause issues similar to the stator plug. It had actually expanded. 

Both cases hardwired and never an issue in the last 7 years and stator still tests just fine. 

Only note to this, prior to discovering both these problems my reg/rec had died and was replaced so I couldn’t rule that out as the cause of these symptoms. 
Still worth a look especially as you do need to do the filters and the tank will be off makes life so much easier. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 13:57
@wigginssp thanks as well. Good checks. The brown block immediately before the reg rec appears fine and hadn’t realised there was another brown block connector as well. I will look for that when the tank is off as a check. Presumably it looks kinda melted and black and not in good shape if it’s shagged! 

Will also read up in the manual and look for the solenoid one in the rear seat unit. If nothing else it’s another check, clean and reconnect to make sure
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 17:48
Easy test re the breathers, should have ben the first suggestion. If it happens again to the point of cutting out, do nothing other than open the filler cap, close it again  after a few seconds and see what happens. Opening the cap will release any vacuum tank and if it is the breathers are the problem the bike should run well again until the fuel system creates another vacuum.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hangry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2023 at 19:01
Originally posted by badapple badapple wrote:

Originally posted by Hangry Hangry wrote:

Yep that's it and if I remember correctly when removing and replacing a battery don't leave the key  in the bike put in your pocket until battery connection complete especially on earlier models  

Exactly that but only effects the early gen2s
lol you ok bud iv not been on a lot just starting to dip in again,I thought it was a early gen2 then realised it was an 06 ,iv been interested in this cuz mine been off road for nearly a year and I want to do that new pump kit that has been mentioned as preventative measure also if it got two brown connecters get rid of middle oneWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2023 at 16:15
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

The technical bulletin from Aprilia but less relevant to an in use drain. 

INTRODUCTION:
The following procedure must be performed when refitting the battery onto a vehicle with
the MARELLI instrument panel (identifiable by the + and - buttons to the left of the display). This procedure is necessary to prevent the instrument panel from remaining in the "awaiting memorisation of 2nd key", causing it to consume 20 times more current than normal.
The problem is caused by the instrument self-resetting and then waiting for a key memorisation procedure (even if it has already been performed), remaining in standby mode with this function still active. The resulting high current consumption will drain the battery completely within 3 or 4 days if the vehicle is not used.



PROCEDURE:
After disconnecting the poles of a battery on an RSV 1000 V2 with Marelli instrument panel, after reconnecting, perform a key-on, wait at least 15 seconds without starting the engine then switch the ignition off.

For more precise testing, connect a multimeter set to current measurement to the battery poles: at key-on, current consumption drops from 45 milliamps to 1-2 milliamps after approximately 15 seconds. 
Obviously, when the multimeter is disconnected, it is as if the battery poles were disconnected again, so the aforementioned procedure must be repeated without the multimeter.


As an adjunct to that Colin posted,the important info is highlighted in RED.   This only effected those RSV's bikes so equipped,therefor Tuono owners and bikes equipped with other dash's don't need to do anything battery procedure wise.

At least that is my understanding of what Amuari wrote on the subject and comments thereafter,just so people don't try and fix something that isn't broken Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote biff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2023 at 21:31
So finally after several work constraints, family holiday and waiting to get bits from screw fix, I finally made it into the garage and was able to start investigating and checking what was what.

Siphoning the tank went ok other than the odd splash of petrol and next I lifted the tank. I had a perfect wooden block to hold it upright. The new fuel Jerry can is a green plastic jobbie so I gave up trying to see whether there was any water in the fuel I had siphoned out.

Removing the breathers was simple and as you correctly guessed, one of the aluminium nozzles at the base of the tank was blocked…. And it’s took about 30mm of drilling to clear it. I got the feeling I had unblocked it and there was some grey gunge on the end of the drill bit….shoved a short length of strimmer line up it and got a satisfying spurt of gungy grey brown water. 

Checked both breather hoses and they were clear so reattached and re routed them and the tank is now back on. Got dark so I have left reassembly as tomorrow job. 

So it May have been as simple as the blocked nozzle. I am going to do the filters and pipe kit over the winter as a precautionary measure but the next job is to fill it up and take for a ride to see if I can replicate the problem. If not, hopefully it’s job jobbed. Thanks for all the advice
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