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IanG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Brake knowledge
    Posted: 17 Nov 2018 at 19:07
I came across something surprising recently that had me re thinking what I thought was correct.

I came across one of Matt's rant on youtube and immediately thought he was wrong in what he said regarding brake bobbins.

However after thinking about it I realised he was right and so I'd like to share this info if anyone is interested enough to care either way.

He debunked the perceived wisdom of having the bobbins free enough to spin,I'm certain now they aren't designed to. HOWEVER cleaning them enough that are able to rotate means that the braking rotor has a small amount of freedom due to the wave washer to displace slightly and return under cooler conditions.

So I conclude that having the bobbins spinning was not any benefit per se ,and possibly even counter productive. BUT I will stand by my own experiences on several sets of discs that such a deep clean allows any crud to be flushed away from between the rotor/bobbin and mounting therefor allowing everything to work together as designed.

So perhaps instead of trying to spin the bobbins perhaps it might be best practice to deflect a bobbin and just flush round all sides with brake cleaner?


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Mr Miller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2018 at 20:20
Don`t know about you Ian, but I think the guy wants `em left alone ffs...
Good point .. never spin mine.. but as you know .. cleaning anything is 
not my best trait .. also vid had enough F words to keep a Scot interested..
Good post mate ..Clap


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2018 at 20:35
Ian, I saw Matt's video and came to exactly the same conclusion as you in that getting them to spin is unnecessary and maybe even detrimental however having them clean must still be a good idea.

I do like Matt's videos, he has very wide and practical engineering knowledge and talks a lot of sense. However he does occasionally go beyond his own knowledge and gets it wrong. You may have noticed that I commented on his recent rant regarding oil viscosity where he did manage to get some of it wrong.
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IanG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 01:58
Yeah,I don't tend to watch a lot of his vids but he does have some good insights now and again.

I have in the past cleaned the bobbins enough to spin but now I think I'll be a bit more delicate
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 12:58
Bobbins in my old T were not solid per se, you could  feel a little play when you twisted the discs around the axle. Some may consider this an mot fail?
But they felt nice, were by far the best performing, non grabby, progressive & spot on set ups ever.
Sorry I still haven't got it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote damo46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 14:50
Well I'll admit there is too much free play on my discs from all the f###ing ocd cleaning I did on my bobbins to make sure they were freely turning down through the years. If I grab the discs with my fingers I can rock them forward and backwards about 2mm, the direction where there should be no free play. Ah well lesson learned, if it aint broke leave it alone . They have done nearly 60,000 miles I suppose so, time for some new discs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mixdrive1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 19:20
I had noticed alot of talk on here and fb about spinning your bobbins, i am pleased this takes a more sensible view on the matter many thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 12:05
Sums it up nicely thanks Ian. I never knew it is a good thing for them to not move but I did start to think it was just another old wives tale that the bobbins have to be free enough to spin.

I came across this page from EBC describing their square drive bobbins and after reading it I decided to ignore the typical advice. Plus I had a load of bother with binding brakes back in April so I gave a lot of attention at the time to what could be causing it.
https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/the-facts-about-floating-motorcycle-rotors-or-discs-by-ebc-brakes/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 14:00
I think the thing here may be that the theory of spinning bobbins grew from the desire to keep them clean and free to move laterally to compress the springs - they need to move to do that - but how else can you tell they are able to move as it's very difficult to compress them manually. So if they spin, then they can also move laterally? It ended up being that spinning was actually important!  Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 14:51
That's what I've come to believe,we were ending up with required result ( clean and free rotors) just taking too long going down the wrong road to get there.  I think Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 17:12
Or maybe not!

If you read the EBC article that Blacklines linked to they say this:

Any motorcycle rotor built with axial float often described by people as a self centering rotor is also doomed to failure. The pad and piston knock back effect of a rotor with axial float is simply a killer and causes sponginess and can render brake levers coming right back to the motorcycle handlebar when trying to re-connect the “knocked back” pad with the rotor under braking. Not good at all!

So maybe just leave them well alone? That is what Matt said in his video.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 17:30
Mmm,maybe... But I know from experience cleaning the bobbins and around the wave washers on a couple of my bikes that it has got rid of a slight pulsing effect at the levers and I've never had any bad effects.

And if that thinking was totally true there would be no such thing as fully floating discs I would think

Probably like most things we're told are bad for us,anything in moderation is ok whereas too much of most things is bad 

Personally I'll keep cleaning that area of my brakes when/if I feel it's called for just as before,but I'll just try not to loosen the fit of the rivets

It might be theoretically wrong but it works for me.

To me that shouldn't be wrong as it's really just maintaining the standard the disc assy was in when it was new Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 18:19
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

And if that thinking was totally true there would be no such thing as fully floating discs I would think


If I remember correctly, Matt covers this in his vid as well, it's to allow for expansion to prevent warping and not about disc alignment at all. So cleaning that area will maintain the gap necessary to allow the expansion.

However when reading the EBC article further, another of Matt's videos comes to mind, that of materials expansion when heated, specifically relating to the expansion of holes in materials. In that he states that when materials are heated all holes expand outwards and never inwards (Unless otherwise constrained). That we know to be correct and is of course why we heat casings to remove bearings but this also conflicts with the EBC article which states:

Under braking and heat generation the outer ring or rotor blade of every two piece motorcycle rotor suffers from band width growth, in other words the outside of the rotor grows outwards but the inside SHRINKS inwards. It is this shrinking inwards that defeats the myth that two piece rotors actually float.

So, maybe we can't rely on the EBC article - at least not completely.

Matt's video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHwKLGYTkKE


This is getting interesting! ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 19:15

True,I except the differing rates of material expansion and the need for clearances

Also some of the things Matt comes out with have been somewhat of the mark,although I'm struggling to remember what the last one was that stuck in my mind at the time.

However I'm always up for learning as long as it doesn't hurt my brain too much
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 20:30
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

Also some of the things Matt comes out with have been somewhat of the mark,although I'm struggling to remember what the last one was that stuck in my mind at the time.


Absolutely, I think he gets a bit carried away. The last one was when he was talking about oil viscosity. He clearly had some knowledge of the subject but not as much as he thought. That's the one I was referring to earlier.

However, he is quite a clever guy - even though he may disguise it at times(!) - and practical with it as he works in testing and R&D type roles. But more than that he obviously reads lot's of tech stuff just for the fun of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 01:23
Ah well,nobody's perfect  LOL   And porn does get a bit boring after a while Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 09:25
Originally posted by legend88 legend88 wrote:

Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

And if that thinking was totally true there would be no such thing as fully floating discs I would think


If I remember correctly, Matt covers this in his vid as well, it's to allow for expansion to prevent warping and not about disc alignment at all. So cleaning that area will maintain the gap necessary to allow the expansion.

However when reading the EBC article further, another of Matt's videos comes to mind, that of materials expansion when heated, specifically relating to the expansion of holes in materials. In that he states that when materials are heated all holes expand outwards and never inwards (Unless otherwise constrained). That we know to be correct and is of course why we heat casings to remove bearings but this also conflicts with the EBC article which states:

Under braking and heat generation the outer ring or rotor blade of every two piece motorcycle rotor suffers from band width growth, in other words the outside of the rotor grows outwards but the inside SHRINKS inwards. It is this shrinking inwards that defeats the myth that two piece rotors actually float.

So, maybe we can't rely on the EBC article - at least not completely.

Matt's video here:


This is getting interesting! ...


I thought when metal expands under heat it expands in all directions. A hole in the metal will expand at the same rate as the rest of the metal would expand. I.e. if the hole were just a circle drawn on it would still get bigger when hot.

But that hole thing only applies to the ventilation holes in the rotor. Not the inside circumference of the rotor which would also expand. The whole (hole?) thing will expand outwards won't it? So the outside will go expand out and the inside will expand in.

I think what they are saying is the buttons act as bearings to allow heat expansion, rather than to make the rotor float to allow it to align properly and minimise drag.

They are saying you only need movement in one plane and that excess side to side movement can lead to pad kickback which can cause accidents like Michele Pirro's one at Mugello this year:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 15:12
Pirro's crash was almost certainly caused by the inherent instability of the Ducati rather than disc bobbins,  do the carbon rotors on a Moto GP bike even have them ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 15:50
Would have thought they did have them.

I thought it was caused by that speed wobble knocking the pistons back. Then when he went for the initial bite braking fromover 200mph the lever would have just come back to the grip. moving the pads back to the disc but not actually putting pressure on. Then he grabbed the brakes hard again (probably out of mild terror at this point) and this time the brakes actually engaged and grabbed violently. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 16:04
absolutely right the Ducati was weaving and wobbling all over the place at the top of the slight rise on the straight. He must have s##t hiself when he went for the brake lever ... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 21:06
Originally posted by blacklines blacklines wrote:

But that hole thing only applies to the ventilation holes in the rotor. Not the inside circumference of the rotor which would also expand. The whole (hole?) thing will expand outwards won't it? So the outside will go expand out and the inside will expand in.


The theory follows the same as the ventilation holes as the disc is effectively just a piece of plate with a big hole in it.

Anybody got an old out-of-spec disc they can put in the oven and do the test?
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