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Vee60
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Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 673 |
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Topic: Doh!Posted: 25 Sep 2021 at 18:08 |
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Took the bike out for a spin today to test the suspension set up after spending several hours yesterday fine tuning it, and bliss! What a huge difference it makes to riding having everything dialled in well.
I say "well" as it had to happen....my mate suggested I ride his Ducati as he couldn't get it dialled in at all well and suggested I ride that on the way back. 10 miles later I stop at a layby to discuss the Ducati's set up (which was awful...every bump saw me thrown out of the seat....it was borderline dangerous as well as uncomfortable). He pulls in on the RSVR next to me on a downhill slope, puts the side stand down and gets off. A few moments later we were startled by a crash behind us...he'd not left the thing in gear and it had rolled off the sidestand and my minty Mille is now looking very secondhand. Clutch lever bust, bar end ruined, swingarm paintwork damaged right at the back (still trying to understand that one!), side ear scuffed to chuffery, lower front panel damaged and tail unit damaged. I reckon perhaps £450 worth of damage. Managed to ride it back with my new "shorty" clutch lever after checking the frame was ok. What saved the bike from worse damage was the fact it had the lower frame R&G bungs fitted, and they saved the main side panel and tank from suffering any damage. For anyone worrying that they spoil the look of the bike, take it from me, it won't be nearly as bad as dropping it without them fitted! I'm a convert. If only I'd had the rear swingarm R&Gs fitted it might have prevented the swingarm from getting scraped. My mate took it far worse than I did and was gutted, but I reminded him it was nothing that couldn't be fixed and not to worry, these things happen. He's offered to pay for the damage so the only pain is having to strip everything off the bike to be repaired and sprayed. I'll do the frame but leave it to the professionals to do the rest. I may try and find carbon ears as per the original trim to replace the silver plastic ones which I was planning on doing anyway. Sourced OEM style aftermarket clutch/brake lever set, new crash bung and getting quotes to have carbon ears made up. Sh8t happens as they say but it's an opportunity to improve things too. Hey ho. The Ohlins was definitely worth going for (ie RSVR) over standard. It's hugely better on road once set up well. I love everything about the way it rides from the power delivery to brakes to handling. It was so much better than my mate's mint 900SS it was really in a different league and I may have found another Mille disciple albeit I wish it could have been under different circumstances. Has anyone out of interest compared the Forza 100 Eprom with the RP58 (derestricted map) eprom, and if so, is there much of a difference?
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Ducati 950S Supersport
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Bladerunner919
Premium Member Joined: 19 Mar 2020 Location: Bracknell Status: Offline Points: 405 |
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Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 09:25 |
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Gutted for you!
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badapple
Premium Member Joined: 03 Nov 2014 Location: Norwich United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 5776 |
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Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 11:41 |
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Oh sh*t you're taking it better than I would my kids thought we were getting a divorce when she reversed into my factory.
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I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left
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Vee60
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Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 673 |
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Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 17:56 |
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I wasn't too happy when it happened but my friendship with the guy is worth more than the bike is the way I figured it. Yes, it was a schoolboy error on his part and I was really not happy but he's really feeling a lot worse than I am, and as he's agreed to pay the bill, I'll just plug on and put down to life's rich tapestry!
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Ducati 950S Supersport
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JimmyV4
Moto GP Alien
Joined: 07 Aug 2018 Location: Ipswich Status: Offline Points: 896 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 01:02 |
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bloody ducati riders eh?
bloody side stand on these things is pathetic aint it it was my number one concern when i got mine. oh well as you said all fixable, thank f**k the tank dident take a bang.
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Vee60
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Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 673 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 11:52 |
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Yes, I was lucky to get away without tank damage and that I could ride it home. Replacing clutch lever today. Need to get quotes for paintwork and bodywork repairs now. I had fitted the Fireblade stand to it already but gravity won out!
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Ducati 950S Supersport
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien
Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 12:41 |
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Thinking your mates bike I imagine if you were to back the rebound and compression right off it would probably improve things loads. Ever seen those charts that compare what feels good for suspension damping vs what actually gives most grip? Peak grip is found a fair bit softer than what most people prefer as damping does cover up a little jerkiness in inputs. But many bikes of that generation were setup ridiculously stiff to be more sporty. I know my Mille feels much better with the rebound all the way out. Though I did use 10w oil instead of 5w.
The main difference I noticed between the FR100 and RP58 is the Forza chip is a lot richer. You'll want to use the trim pots to reduce injector open times if you give it a go. Apart from that it could be placebo but I think it's a little more responsive. He did advance the ignition a bit..
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Owen
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Vee60
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Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 673 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 13:25 |
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Thanks Owen. I may just leave the RP58 in place as fuelling is spot on...really nice and linear with no obvious dips. The Arrow can is a gem. Not as ungodly loud as my previous Akra open pipe but still a lovely deep roar on throttle.
RE Suspension, I agree. You need enough preload to transfer weight for grip to the front but not so much that you limit travel with too much in reserve or screw compression and rebound damping up too much. When I got mine, I set static sag on the back to 10mm (no rider, just mass of bike) which gave spot on preload for my 13.5 stone weight, and adjusted compression just to the point I could feel it working when pressing down, and rebound to just prevent any bounce on the way up and left it there, which was very close to factory settings for the Ohlins. The front I set to allow about 30mm sag and if bouncing the suspension off the stand with front brake on, the cable tie left 40mm between it and base of fork. That translated to about 10 or 15mm less when actually riding it, so very close to what Griff recommended. The compression and rebound I set to factory settings which was bang on perfect. It's all super-plush to ride and confidence in grip is up a lot now. All my Aprilias have come to me with far too much preload dialled in, so they've either been tracked or the owners screw down the spring to reduce ride height so they can get both feet planted. My 31 inch inseam means I'm on tip-toes with correct preload set and attitude of the bike is raised up above level at the back, unloaded and bang on level when I sit on it, so it all feels about right. It's not as complex as most people fear to get it bang on for your weight and for optimal grip and comfort on road. For track, I'd leave compression and rebound damping alone and just up preload a little. |
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien
Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 13:33 |
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It's not rocket science is it. It's just about learning what effects you get for every type of change. There's a bit of interaction between things which does make it more complicated.
Many of the impacts are bigger in some areas than others though. Like you can raise the rear a bit to slightly reduce trail, but mostly increase swingarm angle. Or you could instead raise the front to slightly reduce swingarm angle, but mostly increase trail. So they interact, but the main effect is like 5x more than the secondary which makes it easy enough to manage. You can then think if the problem is corner entry, no problem adjust the front. If you lack grip, raise the front, if it's too hard to steer, lower the front. That'll have some effect on the back, but not worth worrying too much about. If the probkem is corner exit, no problem adjust the rear. If it's going wide on exit, raise the rear. If it's spinning up too soon, lower the rear. That again will have a small effect on the front, but nothing too bad. Then if you're that fussed, rinse and repeat with smaller adjustments. You can get to a very good position quite easily I think. It's not black magic at all.
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Owen
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Vee60
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Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 673 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 13:41 |
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Yes, I agree. For most of my riding, I prefer the rear to be slightly higher than the front with Ohlins showing 4 notches (standard) to help turn in, with forks using most of the available travel for grip, and rear to be firm enough not to drift wide at exit. You can screw things up by going a little too far in opposite areas front to back and I've had a few tank slappers in the past with front set too rigid, but set properly there's no need at all for the steering damper, which I've removed on mine.
My next challenge, besides repairing the bike from the recent damage, is to set my mate's Ducati up for him as it's all a black art in his mind. Once he sees how easy it is, he'll kick himself! (which I'll encourage him to do anyway for dropping my Mille).
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Ducati 950S Supersport
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snowman
Premium Member Joined: 27 Oct 2010 Location: Romsey area Status: Offline Points: 1411 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 14:40 |
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Sorry to hear about your bike .
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Vee60
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Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 673 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 18:22 |
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I'm quite annoyed by the inconvenience of the work needed tbh. It's little things like having to remove the front fairing to get to the well nuts used for the back of the "ears". A lot of hassle which could have been avoided by designing them as captive. I'll q-bond the nuts onto the back of the fairing in case I ever need to remove the ears again.
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Ducati 950S Supersport
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Sparky46
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Joined: 16 Mar 2016 Location: Fife Status: Offline Points: 336 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 22:21 |
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That's a bummer mate, I'm sure your friend feels even worse than you do. Hopefully you manage to get it put straight soon.
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10767 |
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Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 12:26 |
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Um,just putting it out there for comment but why do people use those impractical well nuts for screen blades,ears etc? I use those expanding plastic rivets for all such places,all neat and tidy,secure,easily removed just by pushing the central pin in slightly and all fitted from the front so no need for rear access. Discuss ![]() |
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www.apworkshops.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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blacklines
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Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 14:44 |
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I find the lower screen ones a bit annoying to remove Ian. Need to get a tiny allen key right behind the dash to poke the pin out from behind to actually allow the plastic rivet to pop out. In fact I couldn't actually get my hand in and ended up just taking off the front fairing if I wanted to remove the screen. I replaced the plastic rivets with well nuts and prefer them.
I think these bikes are super easy to work on. All fairings off in a couple minutes. The worst part is the 2 allen bolts at the front of the belly pan. The rest pops off very quickly. The tail can take a bit of maneuvring but it doesn't get removed often. I've heard there's literally no bike that makes tail removal easy either so no real loss there.
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Owen
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10767 |
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Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 14:59 |
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I agree with the ease of removal,apart from those two front underneath ones it's a doddle. Not sure why you had difficulty with expanding rivets though as all the ones I've used you just pop the central pin in a couple of mm and slide the whole rivet out from the front? I use them all round the screen and ears and on my track body work and never had any probs with ease of removal ![]() I actively seek out any wellnuts and replace them wherever found with rivets,although I have a vague recollection of shortening a couple in use somewhere as I had varying lengths in stock and had probably run out of short ones. Some bikes used slightly different lengths and pin types and it seems to be a lottery what type you get when ordering from various bulk suppliers (rather than bike spares sources) Aprilia ones are not necessarily best suited,I think Suzuki and maybe Yamaha used a better example of the type.
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www.apworkshops.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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Vee60
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Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 673 |
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Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 15:22 |
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Well, I'll stick with well nuts for now as they're more secure. I tried plastic pop in rivets and the problem I had with them in the past is that they had a tendency to come a little loose which allows for movement.
I got away with leaving them in place for the ear removal and managed to get one back on without removing the nose fairing which if the front well nuts drop out, is needed. Won't get away with it again so when I replace them, I'll have to remove the whole front which is a PITA.
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Ducati 950S Supersport
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien
Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 10:06 |
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Ah! Maybe I was using them wrong? So you push the pin in to flush to get them to lock into position. Do you then push them in another couple mm to loosen and remove them? I didn't try that and was instead pushing the pin back out again from the back. Might have just been doing something stupid ha.
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Owen
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snowman
Premium Member Joined: 27 Oct 2010 Location: Romsey area Status: Offline Points: 1411 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 12:32 |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10767 |
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Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 13:25 |
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Well tbh I only knew as they were used on my SV1000s bodywork quite liberally and you had to get the rivets out to get access behind them ![]() As for them being loose or working loose it's not going to happen if you use the correct size rivet in the first place as they're a location fit normally,although they will have a slight give when subject to sheer so are also actually more forgiving than conventional fasteners in lots of instances. The only snag seems to be having spares as it's easy to lose them when disassembling,especially the central pins if you have an untidy floor
That's where the source of the things comes into play as there are different styles available. |
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www.apworkshops.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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Vee60
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Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 673 |
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Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 17:06 |
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I've seen the advertised generic 6mm, 7mm and 8mmm plastic rivets on ebay advertised for our bikes and others but using them for things like the stabiliser ears means drilling existing holes out to accept them, plus there's a variety of locking options. Some look like they need pushing out from the back when there must be some that use screw fit locks available? I like the look of the quick release quarter turn SS ones that replace the ones used on the side panels...no risk of scratching the panels in a senior clumsy moment
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Ducati 950S Supersport
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