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Nother electrical gremlin |
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kevinsatu 
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: S. Neots Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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 Topic: Nother electrical gremlinPosted: 03 Jan 2012 at 10:53 |
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Hi all,
Happy New Year to all off you.
But not for me. Bike been running well for quite some time with no problems. Until the bad weather. Not been out for about 4 weeks but bike been on Optimate 4 with lights on charger showing good. Took Optimate off and next morning switched bike on. Headlights very dim. Immobiliser light flashing much quicker than normal. Checked battery voltage: 7.7 V.
Took battery off and charged overnight with ammeter and voltmeter coneected. Charged at 1.2 Amps for 12 hours and battery at 14.4v. Charge terminated and battery stable at 13.5 V for several hours.
Fitted battery to bike, positive lead first then negative. As soon as negative lead connected, fuel pump whirr heard without ignition on.
Ignition on, lights on and started bike. Apart from rev limiter re-setting and single backfire on start, all seemed normal and bike idled OK, except immobiliser light on permanently. Switched ignition off and bike kept running, lights went off. Kill switch shut down OK. Immobiliser light still on permanently.
Ignition switch on again, lights on and and re-started. Again single backfire on start and then idled fine. Still runs when ignition switched off, lights go off. Kill switch shuts down OK. This would suggest that the starter solenoid is working correctly.
Third time, ignition on, lights on ok but no turn over.
All switch on sequences seem ok.
Looked at the wiring diagram to try and trace fault but not sure if diagram in owners manual is good as the lighting switch seems to show something switching to Dip and Main beam relays but from a contact of the connector with nothing on the common input to the switch (Item 8). Should be a switched 28V as other side of Dip and Main relays is connected to ground.
That could be a distraction though, as main problem would tend to suggest ignition switch is at fault but can't understand whu the immobiliser light is on at all times with no flashing. COuld this have also been fried by same fault?
What I didn' think to do was try and start bike with ignition switched off. Wiil do that on Friday, when I am next home.
Any suggestions welcome if any of you have come across this, or similar problems, before?
Cheers,
Kevin
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Kevinsatu
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tapmyhed
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Suffolk Status: Offline Points: 1944 |
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 16:00 |
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Unhappy new year to you, sorry to hear your bike is having issues, but never fear...the knowledge base here is spot on.
Which mille do you have? As for switch 28V.....this is not correct. The handbar light switches are almost no load switches, ie they switch in an earth to a relay that sorts out the meat of the current to the lamps. It takes noball current to energise a relay....and switching in an earth ensures there is no live terminals in and around your bars....keeps it all neat. As you say....most likely a distraction for you, and not the issue. Without knowing which mille you have, the advice you'll get will be limited, for me I'm fairly knowledgable about the 2004 -->...but the earlier ones, not so good really. IF you have the 2004 onwards, then consider a few things: Immoboliser Immoboliser and the immoboliser. Aprilia built one into the bike, linked to the key fob. This little box of wonder lives behind the left hand fairing panel, bolted onto the little inner panel. This can get messed up on the connector...so worth looking at, cleaning up and lubing with contact cleaner and vasaline. After market immobolisers tend to be fitted for insurance purposes...these link into a few starting and running circuits. The fuel injector, for example. It should only 'break' the cct from the ECU..ie...that switched earth (again), it should not supply an earth....but you never know! If it was me, considering you had a battery drain...that would be a good place to start.....disconnect the battery, connect in an ammeter....what you drawing with the key off? If you have something high...a few hundred milleamps or more, then you have a drain. Pull all the fuses, and re-insert one at a time until you see which circuit is drawing the juice....investigate accordingly. It'll most liekly be something trivial thats causing you a ball ache....but you'll get there. Keep us posted on what you find.....more will add advice I'm sure....we dont leave anyone stuck with exotica you cant ride....unless its your missus, then we really cant help you at all! :-)
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Factory 04
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Spoonz
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10957 |
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 16:33 |
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It's your immobilisor ecu. I bet it is corroded really badly inside, they often do.
The solid immobilisor light is a key code error. When they go tits up the immobiosr often doesn't go into sleep mode hence the batt drain.
You can break them apart and sometimes fix the corroded joints but depends how bad it is. As it'a sealed unit you will break the case opeing it up so will have to reseal with silicone.  |
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joe 90
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 17:11 |
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Make sure battery ternminals are tight. try resetting by removing 40 amp fuses, and replacing
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www.spoonztuning.co.uk
I Luv Ducati's Discount Ducati breakdown cover call joe 0800 998 999 |
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kevinsatu
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: S. Neots Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 10:52 |
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Hi All,
And thankjs for the feedback so quickly.
The bike is a 2004 RSVR.
Taps, I did wonder about the switching of 14Volts (not 28V: Used to aircraft electrics) for the relays but, according to the wiring diagram, in the Owners Handbook, the Hi and Lo beam relays (items 3 and 4), Terminal 85, each has a permanent earth on it which goes to one side of the relay coil. The only switching that can be done from the bar switches to make it work is by a positive to the other side of the coil on contact 86. Can't make relays work with an earth on both sides of the coil. To be honest, I think I'm reading too much in to this anyway as it goes on and off with the ignition switch. True enough about the current required; if it's a 1KOhm coil the current will only be about 13mA at 13Volts. We always use ground switching on aircraft too but can't for the life of me see how these 2 relays are switched by a ground. But it is a VERY small diagram. Maybe I need to blow it up a bit.
I checked the current drain once I had the battery charged. Only about 15 or 16 mA with the ignition off.
Spoonz, the picture of the immobilser internals looks awful. I'm guessing that's not your soldering on the terminal pads (or on the wires)! Haven't checked mine yet but the colours of the wires are not the same as shown in the wiring diagram. But then, if the wiring is anything like Agusta helicopters, it would only be a 'guideline' rather than reality.
Joe 90, battery terminals are good and tight and corrosion free. But I hate those stupid floating nuts in there. Always a fiddle to get it lifted to get the screw started.
I've had a look at a fair few threads on this and similar subjects and it seems the immobiliser is the most likely problem. I'll split mine open this weekend and see what it looks like.
I'll post the results or, more likely, ask more questions once done.
Thanks to all.
Kevin
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Kevinsatu
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Spoonz
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Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 11:57 |
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That's not just poor soldering, that is the result of water ingress. The board has been cleaned up but was covered in corrosion around those joints that had eaten into the solder.
Non lead solder as is now the norm for Rohs as you probably know ain't what it used to be.
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 14:15 |
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NOTHING is as it used to be. When you get to my age, that is all too obvious. And not just to me!
Any idea why the wires are not the same colour as in the wiring diagram? I see from a thread on RSV Zone (http://rsvzone.com/forums/showthread.php?15513-Immobiliser-alarm) that BRG had the correct colours on his. Maybe his was a Monday to Thursday machine.
Kevin
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Kevinsatu
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Spoonz
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Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 16:16 |
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Some looms use black and white on one of the leads from the zardi unit and some black and pink. They both do the same thing.
As far as i know the rest of the colours are the same.
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tapmyhed
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Posted: 05 Jan 2012 at 15:43 |
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Aircraft voltages: 3 phase 115 Vac at 400Hz....shocking I can remember that from my days wearing blue uniforms and doing regular guard duties, teas and keys and general fod plods after airshows.
The best bit for me were the beercalls.....that and the unlimited sports you could get away to do...if so inclined. I left in 2003 after 17 glorious years, 11 on Tornado, GR1/4 and F3 and the last remaining years on AWACs in the software team. You'll know exactly what I mean when I say I did 2 for the queen....robbed is what that is! Yup, did not even complete my 22.....told them where to stick it in the end after threats to do fire duty during the fire strikes and being told I was going to do 24hr aircraft guard in turkey...both I got out of due to a long term injury....a year later I was out. Anyway....hope you get your bike fixed mate!
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Factory 04
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 11:49 |
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Morning all.
Got the immobiliser unit out this morning and no sign of any cracks in the insulation and all connectors, pins and wiring clean and corrosion free.
Before I take the plunge and cut it open, is there any way of testing the damned thing? Is there likely to be any internal contamination if there are no cracks in the casing?
Off to buy a dremel just in case.
Kevin
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Kevinsatu
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 11:56 |
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Taps,
You did considerably mor than me for Her Maj. Like you, I did 2 for free (Cosford '69 t0'71) then 30 MU at Sealand. Now for someone who joined up to work on aircraft to be posted to somewhere with only ATC gliders, it wasn't the best start so managed to get a posting to Scampton and did 5 years on Vulcans before buying myself out. Best £250 I ever spent.
I know what you mean about 115V 400Hz stuff with those big, heavy CSDU's. But it does provide an awful lot of power.
And I never saw an immobiliser on a Vulcan. things were so much simpler then. But much heavier.
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Kevinsatu
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Spoonz
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Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 16:42 |
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No test for immob without axone as far as i know but i would put money on it being the problem.
Speaking of Cosford i did a spell there using their sports complex. I got a sponsorship to spend 4 weeks there with the RAF trainers to bring on young sportsman. We had to live as if we were in the force. Eat, stay with them etc. Sadist officer rattling the rads at 6 am every morning to get us out of bed etc. I remember Albrighton being a local haunt for pubs etc and playing volleyball on a huge playing field opposite the entrance to the camp. I had a fantastic time even the assault course carrying tractor tyres. |
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 09:37 |
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Got the dremel, cutting disc and plasters handy. Will start cutting shortly, after I've checked the ignition switch and wiring.
Ah, yes, Spoonz. The running track. We did that twice a week, usually just after a cooked breakfast. That and cross country including running over the 'blister' hangars.
You should be glad that you didn't have to stay and eat in the Fulton Block of the old days. And at least rattling the radiator is not as disturbing as someone blowing the bugle in your (19 man) room at 6 a.m. very day for 2 years. The Shrew was the nearest pub in Albrighton so the one we used most. Only 16 or 17 at the time but no problem getting served. Only problem was getting back in to camp when we weren't supposed to be out. But looking back, was it all that bad? Yes. But it was better than going down the pit which would have been my other career alternative.
Anyhoo, new multimeter just arrived so time to do some checking and cutting.
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Kevinsatu
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joe 90
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Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 16:05 |
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don't butcher yet!! try a hot air gun/hair dryer to dry out the condensation / spray wd40 everywhere afterwards, I had one of the many problems mine repaired it self in the end winter to summer.
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www.spoonztuning.co.uk
I Luv Ducati's Discount Ducati breakdown cover call joe 0800 998 999 |
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tapmyhed
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Posted: 09 Jan 2012 at 16:33 |
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FULTON BLOCK!!!!! 18 months....I was an appo scumbag!!! 18 man rooms, route lining for the queen, so spent time at Halton too. Cosford for 3 years. Did the blister hangers, did the rouges lane run and round the back a great big bloody hill....again and a again.....
Thems the days. OUCH. Did not work on jets directly...either tech training schools or software teams....but was good non-the-less! Albrighton...now theres a place with memories....The Crown? shut now...or it was a year ago when I drove through.
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Factory 04
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 09 Jan 2012 at 18:30 |
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Well chaps, took Joes advice from yesterday and tried more driying out etc and left it in the airing cupboard overnight ("What's that funny smell in the airing cupboard?" "Dunno love, but definately not WD40"). Unfortunately, didn't make any difference so time to cut. dremel cutting disc too thick so cut it with a scalpel, removed the back and removed some of the potting compound by heating scalpel with hot air gun and slowly melting edges. Got the whole thing out of the housing and on the bench. Not a sign of dry joints; all look good and no signs of any other moisture damage. Cleaned all the goo off anyway and hung the circuit back in. Soon as I put the battery back in, the immobiliser flashing as it should!!!! And started first prod. turned ignition off and engine stopped. So SOMETHING changed but don't know what. Will take immobiliser pack to work, clean old varnish off, re-do the joints anyway and re-varnish with good quality conformal coating. Not back until Friday now but, fingers crossed, job could be a good un. Taps, yes I was an appo scumbag too but a crap app. I'm guessing you were a tech app if you did 3 years. Or did they change the apprentice timescales after '74? Seem to remember hearing something about it but not sure. I was 216 Entry (Air Radar side). The Crown? Which one was that? Like I said we used to use the Shrew (and Spiders Web for non-alcoholic stuff) and a pub there near the village green on the right; Might be the Harp but not sure. And the Bell on the A41 at Tong.Watch this space for results of re-fitting. Moderators, forgive me in advance for my next post if it doesn't work.
Cheers for now , all.
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Kevinsatu
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Spoonz
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Posted: 09 Jan 2012 at 19:28 |
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I was at Cosford in the early 80's so not sure if Fulton block was there. The pub in Albrighton was full of glue sniffing punks as i remember but we only went there for the village fate and 1 other time.
Do you remember the hocky pitch opposite the nursey school (wooden shak) ? I was practising flick goals when we were pratting about and the ball went over the goal and landed on the bonnet of the teachers BMW. She weren't happy and the instructor copped a load of flak. Kev, i reckon it will fire right up when your done and be fine but the pain will be keeping the water out down the line. Edited by Spoonz - 09 Jan 2012 at 19:28 |
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 09:37 |
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Spoonz,
Another one at Cosford! Seems like everybody must have been there at some time. Don't remember the hockey pitch too well but I think it was next to the outdoor arena. And everything was wooden shacks in those days. All our theory and component level training was done in the wooden huts.
Sounds like you got away with the blame for the BMW incident. But how did the teacher know it was a hockey ball wot done it? Was she in the car at the time?
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Kevinsatu
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Spoonz
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Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 09:55 |
The kids were watching out of the window at the time and it made one hell of a bang. The instructor went to retrieve the ball and she came out all guns blazing. we were too busy laughing to come to his aid.
The hockey pitch we used was tucked in a corner of the camp as i remember. Our accomodation block was on the main route straight in from the gate not far from the food hall and recreation rooms (pool etc) and the pitch was somewhere behind us but it's all a bit vague now. I can remember our instructior used to shout "bullets" on the assault course in woods. If you didn't have your head low enough he came and pushed it down with his foot. He used to shout bullets in a stream or bog just for a laugh. sadist. I found a pic of my team the other day from then. Dodgy haircuts, RAF tracksuits etc, very sad looking bunch. Edited by Spoonz - 10 Jan 2012 at 09:59 |
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 13:08 |
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Spoonz,
Now I know hwere you mean. If I'm right, the wooden huts you are talking about included the R.C. and other denominations church for Church parade on Sundays and the Liberal Studies classroom along with others that we used for doing evening classes in.
When you posting the picture?
Back on topic, I re-soldered the immobiliser PCB this morning and am waiting for the conformal coating to arrive. I'll probably blag some PRC to re-seal the housing but wont do that until I've tried it on the bike again. Soon be Friday. Weather looks none too bad so could be out on Saturday. The Suzuki (GSX 1250 FA L0 - Definately not a Bandit) is OK especially for 2-up, but not for a good solo blast.
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Kevinsatu
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tapmyhed
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 00:27 |
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Kevin/Spoonz....I was there 87-90, 3 year 'insty'. All those wooden blocks you talk about: J-Line, K-Line and so on....all gone now....knocked down. Did most of my training in there. Fulton block has been there as long as time itself, 4 wings, 3 stories, mess, tv rooms and so on....saw my first porno in one of the VHS tv rooms.......full of blokes all watching intently at the sweedish hairy motted women......pretty sad really!
Yes I remember all those pubs...but the spiders web....never went in it in the 3 years I was there!! Went to the cosford cafe though....video machines, pool table and the best suasage and mushroom sandwich....but alas, no longer there! Anyway...seems you found the problem....without seeing what it was. seal that sucker up and you should be OK. Awesome bike. Read a bike mag from last month....reviewed the milley as an old bike, described as the 'poor mans' italian exotica: what a crock! I have the orignal receipt of my beast: just over £13K in 2004 (had some extras) Hardly 'poor man' at that price!! But by todays standard, OK a bit dated perhaps, but it still cuts the mustard on the track if properly fettled and looked after. Night night.
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 10:24 |
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Whats's VHS? OHP was new technology when I was there. Didn't quite work for showing porn movies. though.
Was the Cosford Cafe the one attached to the old garage? Or the one at the railway station? We used to get some massive doorstep cheese and chutney sarnies from them.
I don't begrudge the title Poor Mans Italian . I certainly don't mind paying less than Ducati money for riding something as good as the Mille. When it's going. I couldn't afford a Duke when I bought the Mille. I can now but don't think the cost to change would be worth it. I test rode the V4 Factory when it first came out and it was brilliant. But it was £14 K and would have got about £4k for mine at the time. It wasn't £10K better. Paid £5,500 for the Mille in 2005 when it was nearly 2 years old (Plus £300 for the Akra cans). So even if it is classed as an old bike now, I've had my moneys worth (and so have the Aprilia spares department) and probably stuck with it. Worth more than a part-ex would be and, to be honest and having had a few test rides over the last couple of years, haven't found a better all-round tool for what I want a sports bike to do. Never track day-ed the Mille as I just didn't want to damage it. Always rented a bike and managed to loose £400 deposit when I stoved one at Rockingham last year. How much damage would I have had to pay for if it han been the Mille? Maybe time now to retire it from road use and keep it for track only.
Had the Suzuki for 18 months and I'd swap that for something without hesitation. Test ride coming up on a ZZR1400 so could be soon. Once we've swapped the wife's car.
Imobiliser PCB lacquered and some life-expired PRC in bag ready to seal the housing up again tomorrow.
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Kevinsatu
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tapmyhed
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 14:14 |
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yup...was the same cafe...the main one was behind the garage....with an external little cafe to catch the rail business. I got banned from them once......for shagging one of the girls and having free butties from her.......she lost her job....my ban only lasted a couple of days! Was good whilst it lasted, but that was years ago. Believe it or not I was part of 149 entry....prob said too much now!
Fond memories of those days. I agree, the mille is too specail and even though mine has done some serious milage, its value is in having it and riding it. I would not get much for it in a px anyway! Its all boxed up at the moment...might get her out to start on those jobs I want to do.....might not...spring is a fair way away yet. :-) |
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Spoonz
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 14:47 |
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I'm gonna scan my pic and post it up over the weekend to give you a larf. Me and a load of teenagers just after we arrived at Cosford in Raf trackies taken outside our accomodation block on the grass looking back towards the entrance to the camp.
Some very dodgy haircuts on it.
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 15:37 |
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Taps,
Spring not far and some really cheap track days between now and April. Go on. Get it out. You know you want to. Or is that what the girl from the cafe said?
149 Entry??? I think it was 114 to 119 when I was there. 1xx series were Tech Apps (3 trades) passed out as Corporals, 2xx were Crap Apps (Single trade) passed out as JT's and 3xx were Mech Apps and passed out as SAC's.
Spoonz, can't wait to see if your picture is as bad as mine. If you put yours up, I'll get mine scanned and do likewise. See who was the spottiest.
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Kevinsatu
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 09:08 |
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!
Sod it!!! Got the immobiliser repaired and hing it in. All worked
 . Took it off again, put it back in the case and re-sealed it. Back on the bike, immobiliser light flashing as it should, switch on; no starter turn-over  .Whai I DO have is the sidestand light on and an "Err" message on the dash. This was about half 9 last night so flounced out of the garage and left it to fester. Can't rmember if the "Err" warning comes on with the side stand down/ Don't seem to remember it doing. Doesn't start with clutch pulled in either.
Any ideas? Apart from get rid (which will probabaly be the next course of action).
Must go and see if I can find my will to live. I know I had it a couple of weeks ago but I must have put it down somewhere.
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Kevinsatu
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Spoonz
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Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 11:26 |
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Errrr is a can bus communication issue. Basically the Immobilisor can not be seen bu the Can bus so there is probably a dodgy connection there somehwere. The connectors often corrode so worth checking them out around the ecu. |
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kevinsatu
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Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 14:00 |
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Hi Spoonz. There were a couple of connections in the immobiliser connectors that were giving a higher resistance than the others so put new pins in those (bought the crimp tool for the superseal connectors so if anyone needs to borrow it, they are welcome). Have to say the crimping was not particularly good; most of the seals at the rear of the connectors were not crimped as they should be but at least it made it a bit easier to get to the back of the pins and measure the resiatance across the contacts. Small silver lining. Will check out the wiring to the ecu at the weekend. Summer will be over by the time this gets sorted.
Where's the pic you were going to scan and post?
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Kevinsatu
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Spoonz
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Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 14:57 |
By connections around the ecu i mean the immobilisor ecu not the main ecu by the way. From memmory there is a big white connector just above the ecu which forms part of the CAN loom and that one has no seals so gets very wet and corroded. |
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kevinsatu
Moto3 racer
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: S. Neots Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 16:28 |
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I was wondering about the main ecu connectors mainly because I can't recall seeing the "Err" warning when the sidestand is down. Also, the sidestand light appears to be controlled by the ECH; the sidestand switch goes in to connector 'B'. Also, I've just realised there was no sound of the fuel pump running when I switched the ignition on. Tiome for the wiring diagram again I think.
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Kevinsatu
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kevinsatu wrote: