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Rolling off the edge of a tyre at this angle?

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    Posted: 10 Oct 2013 at 21:32
I recently bought an rsv factory and yesterday went on my first track day to castle combe, had a brilliant day and learnt a lot, but, although I was one of the quickest in the novice group I couldn't get my knee down, or more to the point I couldn't lean over any further to carry more corner speed.
 
The rear tyre is worn right up to the edge with bobbles of rubber on it, which made me think I was going to roll off the edge of the tyre if I leant any further, the front is a diablo supercorsa but the rear is a bridgestone bt016 sports touring tyre.
 
Was it a mental block and could I have carried more lean angle with this tyre? or should I match it to the front to get better results?
 
Got a lot of good advice there from a guy who races an rsvr, on correct tyre pressures and how to ride the circuit, he even asked me to follow him for a lap to show me the way, outpacing me whilst looking backwards at me so he could check my line, then after one lap simply disappeared so quickly I couldn't believe it, to then come up along side me shortly after, I knew I was going to get taught a lesson, but I didn't expect such a severe spanking, know I'm just trying to work out which area I need to improve first, any help would be gratefully appreciated.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dannybyg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2013 at 21:39
First thing I would do is match your tyres and have another go, supprised that didn't get picked up with advice about tyre pressures!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robbiersv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2013 at 21:45
Matey I think you answered your own question... A sports touring tyre aint meant for track days atrictly speaking..i reckon two different makes aint a good idea as the profiles/compounds are unikely to match.. And theres deffo a few more degrees in lean angle to go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote owen2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2013 at 22:11
He thought the pressures were important for safety, but the tyres would grip unless "I" did something to upset them, which was right, so long as I had the throttle cracked through the turn it was very stable and never slipped once, plus I think he thought I needed more adjustments than the bike to begin with, which is probably also true, but I will defanetly get a supercorsa rear for next time,  the front always felt good and was nowhere near its limit, if the rear is the same it should be more confidence inspiring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WARNZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2013 at 22:26
Match your tyres matey just for piece of mind different profiles won't help,in yr pics your riding very road based positioning IMO,I would get some miles done on the bike with it set up to your weight etc
Then get riding like u stole it bum off seat,opposite arm to corner yr taking skimming tbe tank n shoulder down all easy to say I know but practice it will happen fella
The rsv is wicked n stable the more u push the more it talks to ya!
Note unless your at race pace I would say you would run out off grip / skill b4 running off the edge of a decent tyre
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrummyMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2013 at 00:36
Sport touring tyres are very proficient, even on trackdays. You come across as a very safe rider to me. You probably have not explored the current tyres limit which is not a bad thing. Trackdays should be for having safe fun on a bike within your comfort zone and being able to explore what a bike and rider can do.

I can be a bit mental on the roads, but I quite often ride with friends that don't push as hard. This suits me because I then back off and balance my riding more. When I ride with people that push harder than me, I back off because its outside what Im comfortable with.

I expect you are treating the track as an extension of your road riding which is fine. If you enjoyed it, then thats great. There is no need to go faster. If you want to go faster then do more trackdays, get a matched pair of tyres, and put time into analysing and devolping your technique. If on the road, this is weighted towards riding to what you can see and reasonably expect to happen.

My first trackday was on a new pair of Corsa III's  and I got my knee down a few times. I was fastest in the novice group. I don't ride any faster now. I have limited track experience because I cannot afford many trackdays. What I have learned is that Racetecs are excellent tyres and I really enjoy them, but I can ride almost as fast on Pilot Road 3's, although it does not feel as good. As long as your tyres are not trashed, it really is about the rider.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2013 at 06:41
Nice pic Max
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stew9955 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2013 at 09:01
If you look at my profile pic, 

you'll see that you can go a lot further over, and I'm not the biggest 'leaner' on here (Warnz). Match your tyres, I was running Bridgestone BT-16's in that picture, and just relax. Body position is all important as well. Don't worry too much about going off the edge of the rear, by the time you get that far over, you'll more than likely be dragging you knee, toe and foot peg, I was when I did it at Snett in May.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jollygiant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2013 at 18:11
Thats me that is....... Any more lean and the side stand would be touching down!

Tips on this thread....http://rsvr.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=10744&title=the-rsvr-knee-down-gallery

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote owen2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2013 at 12:25
Hi all, thanks for the replies and pics, nice to see what's possible on the bt016, I would agree about the safe riding, I prefer to understand what's possible rather than just chuck it in and hope.

First thing to do is get a supercorsa on the rear, then set up the suspension, I mentioned this to the lad I work with as I'm certain the previous owner will have been heavier than me unless it was owned by a twelve year old girl, his response was that she would still be heavier than me (I am about ten stone wet).

Then start working on body positioning, arse off more and head looking around the screen, once I've eliminated the excuses I've just got to build up the corner speed, can't wait till next time, can see this costing a lot of money in track fees.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twintorque Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2013 at 14:10
Don't forget as long as its in good conditions, you can practice aspects of body positioning etc on the road, just make sure its a familiar strecth of tarmac! I've (briefly) got my knee down a few times and I've never been on track or done advanced training. Don't get me wrong, trackdays and courses can and will do nothing but good for your riding, just saying you can do some homework on good roads to save the expense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jollygiant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2013 at 15:33
It will happen one day, so don't worry too much.
The more you try and do it on the road the more likely you are to come a cropper. As you need 110% knowledge that the track ahead is clear with no diesel/ crap / twat in a volvo on the wrong side of the road.

By all means ride as fast as you like and think about body positioning etc but don't expect to get your knee down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slackey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2013 at 15:48
Originally posted by Jollygiant Jollygiant wrote:

It will happen one day, so don't worry too much.
The more you try and do it on the road the more likely you are to come a cropper. As you need 110% knowledge that the track ahead is clear with no diesel/ crap / twat in a volvo on the wrong side of the road.

By all means ride as fast as you like and think about body positioning etc but don't expect to get your knee down.


Oi....I drive a Volvo!......should I leave now?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adzed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2013 at 16:21
Originally posted by Slackey Slackey wrote:

[QUOTE=Jollygiant] It will happen one day, so don't worry too much.
The more you try and do it on the road the more likely you are to come a cropper. As you need 110% knowledge that the track ahead is clear with no diesel/ crap / twat in a volvo on the wrong side of the road.

By all means ride as fast as you like and think about body positioning etc but don't expect to get your knee down.


Oi....I drive a Volvo!......should I leave now? [/QUOTE

Yep!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2013 at 21:01
Get a set of matched track tyres and set to correct pressures, pay £40 for suspension set up and then just practice, practice ,practice, get yer butt of the seat more and put the ball of your foot on the outside of the footpeg.

This piccy of me is on the same bike as you with track tyres, just build up your confidence and it will happen, as you can see there is a long way to go before you are off the edge of the tyre


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2013 at 08:45
That is some serious lean angle there Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stew9955 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2013 at 09:55
I'm with Ian, that IS some serious lean angle Badger, good effort!!!!!Beer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2013 at 09:36
With that lean, you should be getting your elbow down!!!

I've learnt over the years the following things:

1.  No matter what tyres you got, its way better than you
2.  Be smooth onto brakes, rolling from brakes to throttle and onto throttle.
3.  Look where you want to go ALL TIMES.

Your only obsticle is your confidence and your experiance, both are linked, ride more learn more do more.....but dont rush, Rome was not built in a day.

Try to get the grounding/experiance you need from trackdays at the same track...dont be doing that travelling around crap.......!!!!

Once you dont have to worry about the track, you can concentrate more on your ride.

Aim for a 'thing' to do each visit.  Dont aim for knee down both sides straight away....

Look at the knee down as the prize for the knowledge and experiance, which means, pick the following as skills:

1.  Braking into a corner
2.  Corner skills...both sides, you will treat your left differantly from your right.
3.  Exit and drive.

To help with all of that, really get to grips with bike setup, and tyre pressures....anything out will make the above pointless.  If your riding a wooden spoon, its a wooden spoon, no matter how good you are.....so possibly invest some money in getting your bike setup.

Listen to people about pressures, this is really important.

I've done rocket rons trackday on a 600 on touring tyres and was fast, without a knee down.  My Pegaso Strada has BT023s and I always get my pegs and boots onto the road.

Tyres is half the battle!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2013 at 20:29
Elbow down...............followed by collar boneLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote owen2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2013 at 22:36
Thanks again for all the advice, the problem was, before I went on the track day, in my head, that last pic is what it was going to be like Shocked
 
Really like the pic, great inspiration, will have a new tyre on by next time and going to sort the suspension this weekend, done a bit of reading and I'm going to set the bike to what should have been before castle combe, there isn't enough rider sag, it's about 24mm at the moment, I will set it at 30mm,  then I am going to set it to the road settings in the manual and take it from there, the front didn't feel too bad, the rear feels very hard though, hopefully pay to get it set up at the next trackday.
 
Once that's sorted...along with maybe some tyre warmers and crash protection, possibly a race fairing, I will start working on myself, better lines, increasing corner speed, smoother braking and getting on the throttle earlier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote a15cro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2013 at 22:48
I've only done three track days and these were my second attempt. I binned it on the third but not by leaning too much!







I would definitely agree with suspension set up and tyre pressures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2013 at 07:38
Regarding tyre warmers,unless you're a riding God I can't see the point.

 And that's a view held by no less an expert than Rocket Ron H who says they're a waste of time & money for track dayers as by the time you've been held in the pit lane and then done a couple of slow warm up laps the tyres are cold again and you've wasted another heat cycle.

It seems to me that the most important thing is body positioning,most people seem to be diagonally across the bike with their head on the up side of the centre line,watching the experts on tv they are all hanging off with their heads looking round the low side of the screens.

Pity my brain knows this and tells me I'm doing just that,but actually a camera says the opposite is true Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Warms Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2013 at 12:49
That's why I wait till there rolling out onto the track before taking off the warmers and going down the pit lane Wink, only do sighting laps on the first session of the day and after lunch also, on the track days I've been on, for some reason allways late out onto track for them times LOL.
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

Regarding tyre warmers,unless you're a riding God I can't see the point.

 And that's a view held by no less an expert than Rocket Ron H who says they're a waste of time & money for track dayers as by the time you've been held in the pit lane and then done a couple of slow warm up laps the tyres are cold again and you've wasted another heat cycle.

It seems to me that the most important thing is body positioning,most people seem to be diagonally across the bike with their head on the up side of the centre line,watching the experts on tv they are all hanging off with their heads looking round the low side of the screens.

Pity my brain knows this and tells me I'm doing just that,but actually a camera says the opposite is true Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stew9955 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2013 at 12:51
Originally posted by Warms Warms wrote:

That's why I wait till there rolling out onto the track before taking off the warmers and going down the pit lane Wink, only do sighting laps on the first section of the day and after lunch also, on the track days I've been on, for some reason allways late out onto track for them times LOL.
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

Regarding tyre warmers,unless you're a riding God I can't see the point.

 And that's a view held by no less an expert than Rocket Ron H who says they're a waste of time & money for track dayers as by the time you've been held in the pit lane and then done a couple of slow warm up laps the tyres are cold again and you've wasted another heat cycle.

It seems to me that the most important thing is body positioning,most people seem to be diagonally across the bike with their head on the up side of the centre line,watching the experts on tv they are all hanging off with their heads looking round the low side of the screens.

Pity my brain knows this and tells me I'm doing just that,but actually a camera says the opposite is true Confused


Ditto
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote owen2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2013 at 22:09
At castle combe the novices got two sighting laps in the morning with no overtaking, after that overtaking was allowed on the first lap, the guy that goes flying past on the warm up lap in the vid below, did it every single session, plus they have a red and green traffic light next to the session number that can be seen from the car park, the quick boys would wait for the green then take off the warmers and be on it straight away, getting an 'extra' fast lap in.
If the warmers go straight on after the last session when the tyres are still warm, even if you did have to wait a bit surely it would still be the same amount of heat cycles as not using them?
 
Did my suspension today, rear sag 30mm, front 35mm, both were set way too stiff for me, then set the compression and rebound back to the manuals road settings, it had gone dark and just finished raining when I took it for a test ride, but it's definitely improved, gave me a lot more confidence in the wet, will have to wait to see what it's like in the dry but it feels easier to corner now.
 
This is the last session of the day, I didn't overtake on the first lap so I could take it easy and get some heat into the tyres, I know a lot of my lines are bad, especially with the brake, turn in and apex cones there, didn't trust the cement dust either, but I'm starting to see the right order to do things to make improvements.
 
After watching that you might find this amusing, my aim is to enter the manx gp in 2 or 3 (maybe more) years time, next year I hope to start racing, I believe I need to do ten races as a mid pack novice and ten races as a mid pack clubman to get enough signatures to apply for a national license.
I know realise just how much I have to learn, just to stay in touch in a race, then start working on improvements, there is an acu race school early next year which seems like a good way to start, will be doing as many track days as possible too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Warms Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2013 at 22:33
Nice vid, who was that track day with, as the ones I've been on you have to have the camera attached to yer bike, no helmet cams.
Originally posted by owen2dogs owen2dogs wrote:

At castle combe the novices got two sighting laps in the morning with no overtaking, after that overtaking was allowed on the first lap, the guy that goes flying past on the warm up lap in the vid below, did it every single session, plus they have a red and green traffic light next to the session number that can be seen from the car park, the quick boys would wait for the green then take off the warmers and be on it straight away, getting an 'extra' fast lap in.
If the warmers go straight on after the last session when the tyres are still warm, even if you did have to wait a bit surely it would still be the same amount of heat cycles as not using them?
 
Did my suspension today, rear sag 30mm, front 35mm, both were set way too stiff for me, then set the compression and rebound back to the manuals road settings, it had gone dark and just finished raining when I took it for a test ride, but it's definitely improved, gave me a lot more confidence in the wet, will have to wait to see what it's like in the dry but it feels easier to corner now.
 
This is the last session of the day, I didn't overtake on the first lap so I could take it easy and get some heat into the tyres, I know a lot of my lines are bad, especially with the brake, turn in and apex cones there, didn't trust the cement dust either, but I'm starting to see the right order to do things to make improvements.
 
After watching that you might find this amusing, my aim is to enter the manx gp in 2 or 3 (maybe more) years time, next year I hope to start racing, I believe I need to do ten races as a mid pack novice and ten races as a mid pack clubman to get enough signatures to apply for a national license.
I know realise just how much I have to learn, just to stay in touch in a race, then start working on improvements, there is an acu race school early next year which seems like a good way to start, will be doing as many track days as possible too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote owen2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 09:40
It was through trackdays.co.uk, but it was run by castle combe and they said if I was happy it wouldn't fall off then it was fine. There was no mention of taping lights, mirrors or speedo either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 18:14
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

Regarding tyre warmers,unless you're a riding God I can't see the point.

 And that's a view held by no less an expert than Rocket Ron H who says they're a waste of time & money for track dayers as by the time you've been held in the pit lane and then done a couple of slow warm up laps the tyres are cold again and you've wasted another heat cycle.

It seems to me that the most important thing is body positioning,most people seem to be diagonally across the bike with their head on the up side of the centre line,watching the experts on tv they are all hanging off with their heads looking round the low side of the screens.

Pity my brain knows this and tells me I'm doing just that,but actually a camera says the opposite is true Confused
i got to disagree a bit.  If you q to get on next session, then yes..but me and others i go with have the bike running ready to go, once q is gone, warmers off, stands off and go go go.  we play catchup first lap or so then we are on it fairly quickly.  Going out on stone colds is not advised, and you dont really know when they are on...it only takes one highside and the day is over.  Once back in the pits, the warmers are back on, straightaway.  This gives u one heat cycle for 6 sessions.  Rocket ron only needs i session, and thats the race.  His school does back to back riding, one bike 2 riders so his tyres stay warmed as they dont really get totally cold.  Points of view mate, thats mine.
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Tin Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tin Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 19:38
Personally wouldnt go without warmers if possible myself. I find they make a massive difference on the first lap out. I still dont thrash the tits off the bike on the 1st lap but the bike grips much better than when I used to run without giving me more confidence in myself and the bike, but each to their own, might just be in my head.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 19:55

I was not a believer in tyre warmers until a few years ago when I booked oulton and my mate couldn't make it , so I borrowed his van with all his gear which included his tyre warmers so I thought why not try them ? I have to say they where a revelation and made the bike feel much more planted from the off , instead of having the feeling of trying to run wide for at least the first lap before the tyres got some heat in them . anyway tyre warmers may not be for everyone but if you do ever get the chance to use a pair I would recommend them . last bit of advice get Twist of the Wrist , by Keith Code  ,and read it several times and as Tampyhead says try to concentrate on a few things each trackday and soon every corner on track will be a kneedown corner

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