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The Old Charger

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arlurt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2019 at 12:33
Thanks everyone.  Smile
 
The top box is only to get me to the IoM and back.  I'll take it and the frame off while I'm there, it's only four bolts in to existing fixing points.  The RSV actually has a good amount of space under the pillion cover compared to bikes I have and have had.  I usually carry a D Lock round with me when we're away so we can quickly lock a couple of helmets to the bike rather than carry them about.  And to discourage any one who might want to steal the poor old girl while I'm away.
 
I was very pleasantly surprised by the bike on my ride out on Saturday,  the only miles I'd done on it until then was a ride home from Hull in late December, below freezing, and a coupe of trips round the block.  I haven't done anything intelligent about setting the suspension up yet.  As a start point I backed all the adjusters all the way out and then back in one full turn, which seems to be about a third of the usable range for compression and rebound front and rear.  There's a couple of full threads of pre-load on the rear and the same on the front.  The ride is spot on, absolutely fine for the rough A and B roads I usually ride, and which are pretty representative of the back-roads we usually ride on the IoM.
 
It's quite heavy on the wrists at less than National Speed Limits.  If I had longer front brake and clutch pipes I'd try it on the 2" higher clip-ons I bought from Jambon on here.  I've found a Tuono front brake line on eBay, but think it'll be way too long for what I want.  I'll have to see about getting some made up in slower time.
 
The riding position dictates that I really shouldn't have "the full English" before going out for a ride.  the tank does get in the way of my gut!  It's OK so long as you don't want a p*ss, or you've just eaten.
 
I'll get on to making an "Engine Map Switch" in the next few days and try the Std. Airbox Map.
 
The last thing I was considering was swapping the tyres.  It's running what I guess are touring tyres, quite heavily treaded, with what I assume is a fairly hard compound.  They're perfectly good wear-wise, but perhaps not the most sporty option.  For the sort of riding I'm doing, and the way it felt on Saturday, I think I'll stick with them for the moment.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2019 at 16:28
I've got the belly pan and side panels off the old girl for oil and filter change, and to fit the new rear shock lower mount bush made by my friend.  Thanks Ian.



On the right is the badly corroded bush I removed, and on the left, a new one made to match the one Ohlins one that they managed to ship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2019 at 13:00
My little run round the block yesterday, to warm the oil before the oil and filter change.  The sun was out, so I had to stop at "the local" to refresh myself before returning to the workshop.  Wink
 
 
I've noticed there's a sooty mark on the front/lower exhaust strap, it's blowing a bit from there, where the can's been damaged by the previous owner.  It'll do for the moment, but at some point I'll have to take the can apart again and either try to bend the end cap to close the gap, or use a bit of exhaust gunge to seal it.
 
The oil change was straight forward enough, and what came out certainly looked ready for a change.  There were no significant pieces on the magnet, just a slight covering of greyish sludge.  The drain plug was really tight, doubt it's been out for a while.  Refilling was strange to what I'm used to, I poured and poured oil in for ages before it registered in the sight glass, I guess it fills the cooler and filter as well as the bottom part of the oil tank before you see an oil level.  Then topping up to get the right level it suddenly took very little to make a large change in level in the sight glass.  Anyway, all done and happy.
 
Oh, one issue I did find last night, the front oil tank rubber mount is broken, no longer supporting the tank.  I've cable-tied it in place, just looping the cable tie around the oil tank mount and pulling it up against the oil cooler bracket that it should be fastened to.  I'll have to get hold of some more rubber mounts.
 
Next job is to fit the new rear shock bush, and while I'm in there I might turn the seals round on the rear linkage.  As they're fitted at the moment, a squirt with the grease gun pushes them out.  If I put them in backwards, they should allow grease out without pushing the seal, and stop water and muck getting in.  On the plus side, I cane easily remove the seals with damaging them, just using the grease gun.
 
Then just three more jobs before the trip away...  Chain to adjust.  Have a look at the suspension setup.  Tyre pressure check.
 
I'm really pleased with the way the bike handles and rides, so for suspension setup the first job will be to write down how it's set up now, so I can come back to it if my "improvements" make it worse!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2019 at 15:17
Agree with changing the seals round, especially as you've fitted grease nipples. Aprilia should have done it that way to start with.

Now any overpressure will just give some added lube to the teflon/nylon spacing washers and make it even harder for water to get in the bearings

Those isolastic rubbers are a pita, very prone to self destruction, mine were the same but fortunately Griff had them in stocks.

I did wonder if car units might be stronger, I seem to recall the old mini's used them somewhere on the exhaust I think and I often see similar units for a couple of quid in car accessory  shops.
Might be worth investigating?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2019 at 18:19
Oil level check is done after about a decent run to get the engine to operating temp.
Then shut down and hold the bike level on its wheels. 
Over fill will end up in your air box unless you have a catch bottle instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2019 at 21:57
Thanks IanG and Stevex.

I've bought a bag of rubber M6 bobbins, which should be on their way to me.  The cable tie should keep things together for the moment, certainly better than it just swinging in the breeze.

I've been surprised how much the oil level in the sight glass changes.  As it is now, it's either a touch high, or spot on.  I'll go for a ride tomorrow afternoon and see what it's like after a proper run.

I've done the lower shock bush, linkage seals and chain tension tonight.

Tyre pressures to do, and a switch on the ECU map select wire, and that's it for the mechanical stuff.  Bodywork back on and that's it, ready for a run to The Island.  😊
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2019 at 16:05
Now it's time for the performance modifications that really make the difference!



Came this morning, thanks Spoonz!

As usual, I have a question...  I've replaced the old rubber hose between the Front Brake and Clutch Reservoirs and their master cylinders, I just used "rubber" fuel hose from my local bike shop.  I noticed this afternoon that the hose seems to be porous to brake fluid, the surface of both lengths of hose was covered with little droplets of brake fluid, like the pipes were sweating.  Has anyone else had trouble with low pressure brake fluid lines doing this?

I went back to the shop, and he didn't have anything different, and said he doesn't know of anyone else with the same problem...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2019 at 16:10
Tygon tubing is what's used as far as I know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2019 at 17:28
I've noticed this on my res hoses and I'm sure they're oe

Thanks for reminding me I need to do something about it, it's one of those things I meant to address long ago but kept putting off

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2019 at 08:14
I've bought half a metre of "Brembo" reservoir hose, let's see if that's any different to the fuel hose I'm using at the moment.

This is the problem...





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 07:11
Fitted my ECU Engine Map Switch yesterday, under the pillion cover.  First thoughts were that I wanted it somewhere I could get to it while riding, but thinking about it sensibly I don't think I'll be using it like that.  It's out of the way, and shouldn't get knocked there.
 
 
I've only had chance for a short ride round the block on it with the switch fitted, and in the "made" position to try the other engine map.  Initial impressions are that this map is better suited to my set up, a lot smoother, particularly on part throttle, low speeds.
 
I believe the "open" or cut wire map on the FR200 chip is for the "Open Air Box" mod with modded collector and open exhaust.  The "made" or joined wire map is for the same modded collector and open exhaust but with a standard air box.
 
I guess my bike is nearer the standard air box than the open one.  I've removed the air intake grills, fitted an early, large air box boot, and have a Falco air box that's slightly larger than the standard RSV air box.
 
I need to get out for a proper ride with the switch set for "Standard Air Box" and see how it feels, and what, if anything, it's done to fuel consumption.  I've done nearly 300 miles on it now with the open air box map, a full-tank run should be enough to allow me to make a more informed choice.
 
I flushed the clutch fluid through the other day too.  It had gone mucky grey in just a couple of hundred miles.  I've seen enough reports on here saying it's just the way they are, but let's see how long it lasts this time...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 08:18
Over the weekend, I saw discussion on the Aprilia Performance Facebook pages about engine oil for Gen 1 RSVs...  Now I'm sure the "Search" function on here will give me a list of oil discussions a mile long, as any bike forum does, but thrust of the discussion on FB was that 10w40 engine oil was completely wrong for the RSV, and I should be using 15w50.
 
My Aprilia main dealer sold me Motul 4T 5100 10w40 and a filter, knowing it was for a 2002 RSV-R.  Motul do a 15w50 version of 4T 5100 but it's less common than the 10w40 version.  Have they sold me that oil because it's fine for the job, or because they've got loads of it to sell?
 
And the "Aprilia Performance" Service Kits for the Gen1 RSV include 10w40 engine oil.
 
Is this all just the usual "hot air" that seems to get people all excited when talking about engine oil?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 09:42
I did promise myself I'd never get into another 'what oil' thread but...

Griff uses and sells 10/40 so really that's all I need to know to top with confidence.
I heard somewhere that when the bike was new (way back in the previous century) 10/40 was specced but their chosen oil partner Agip, didn't make that grade so they took the nearest grade that they did make.
Also in a hot climate like Italy in the summer a slightly thicker oil would probably make sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Simpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 09:45
My understanding of multigrade oils is:

The lower figure is an indication of the resistance that the oil provides to 'cold cranking' (ie to turning a cold 'reference engine') at low ambient temperatures. The 'W' stands for 'Winter' and not weight. An engine filled with oil with a low W number will be easier to start, and the faster-flowing oil will also reach the extremities (cams and valves) quicker than one with a higher W number. In normal use, most engine wear occurs shortly after start-up and the low W number helps mitigate this.

The higher of the two numbers is the more critical one: as it indicates the viscosity index (V.I.) of the lubricant at high working temperatures. A low number here shows the oil will present less resistance to the engine in the form of pumping and churning losses, but it will also have a lower film strength. This can be mitigated against to a certain extent by improved additives and synthetic base oils (hence a modern Ford car engine runs on a 5W-30, while the old Escorts etc ran on 20W-50. Putting 20W-50 in a modern Ford will kill it quite quickly as the oil can't flow around the engine fast enough). The modern low V.I. oils assist in fuel economy thanks to their lower pump and churn resistance. 

The situation is slightly more complex on motorcycles with wet clutches, as an oil with a relatively high 'W' number may get a draggy clutch, and car oils with low friction additives may make the clutch slip. 

I suspect the original 15W-50 spec is a precautionary one...if you were taking the bike to, say, Southern Europe in the height of summer, or racing it in a track environment then the extra film strength would provide extra protection at very high working temperatures. For a 'touring' ride up to the Isle of Man in an English Spring, I'd have thought the 10W-40 would be adequate. Incidentally, my KTM 950 requires 10W-50 oil for 'normal' temperatures, but the handbook says to switch to 5W-40 if the ambient temperature drops below freezing...the starter motor struggles to turn it over at sub zero temperatures and the lower film strength of the 5W-40 is obviously less of an issue.

Hope this makes sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 10:12
Spot on Rich

To add a little, the higher viscosity index is actually measured at a standard temperature that is supposed to represent the operating temperature of the oil in a correctly functioning engine (Nothing to do with ambient temperatures). Effectively the ambient doesn't really matter as your cooling system (If it is operating correctly) will keep the engine at this 'correct' temperature.

The main function of an engine oil is less about lubrication per se but about creating a film between moving parts to keep them apart and that is why pressure is more important than flow for wear resistance. Flow is more about cooling. The 50 grade oil does create this film barrier better than the 40 and that's why I've always stuck with 15w50 because because big V Twins create greater internal forces in pretty much all areas other than maybe those to do with piston and rod acceleration at very high revs.

Originally posted by arlurt arlurt wrote:

Motul do a 15w50 version of 4T 5100 but it's less common than the 10w40 version.
And the "Aprilia Performance" Service Kits for the Gen1 RSV include 10w40 engine oil.

Karl, I use Motul 5100 15w50 and have always done so (I've had the bike since new) and never had any problems although I haven't done that many miles either. Embarrassed

I respect Griff's knowledge too and wouldn't question his recommendations but it would be interesting to know the detailed history of oil use of the few RSV's that have suffered engine failure.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 13:09
Thanks legend88, Rich and IanG.
 
Sounds like I don't need to dash back to the oil shop for 15w50.  For my pottering about on the island, and a hundred mile A-Road run to the ferry and back it'll be fine.  Decent new stuff on the edge of the grade scale will still be better than grotty old stuff that was the right grade a long time ago.
 
Big Twins seem to provoke more oil "discussion" than the In-Line boys have.  I recall the XB12R Buell was quite particular about it's oil, but that was as much to do with the "traditional" design of the engine, roller bearings in big ends and mains, than it was to do with performance.  The AP FB oil discussion was pretty close to name-calling at one point, I'll step back at that point as I suspect the period of reasonable discussion is over.
 
I'll run this season out with the 10w40, but I think I'll change to 15w50 next time.  After all, the old girl's only seventeen years old, I don't want to risk my warranty claim being refused for running the "wrong" oil!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Simpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 13:53
That sounds wise.

I do quite a lot on oils for the truck industry.

The distances truck oils last are huge, but then so are the quantities (the sump on a Volvo FH16 is larger than the fuel tank on some cars!).

Synthetic oils have allowed some oil change intervals to be really stretched...80,000  or 100,000 km on some long haul trucks. But something we've found is that while synthetic oil lasts longer and performs better than mineral, beyond the end of its life its effectiveness collapses, while mineral oils tend to soldier on a bit better. So I'd always respect the recommended change intervals on a motorcycle engine running synthetic oils.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 14:33
Originally posted by Rich Simpson Rich Simpson wrote:

But something we've found is that while synthetic oil lasts longer and performs better than mineral, beyond the end of its life its effectiveness collapses, while mineral oils tend to soldier on a bit better.


I didn't realise that, does it apply to semi synth too? It's useful info, for the car mainly as the bike gets changed at least once a year whatever miles it's done, usually a lot less than the recommended interval.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Simpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 15:53
It's only really an issue on full synths when running on the extended drain interval (mileage), so far as I know.

I tend to give almost everything an annual oil change, because I'm so old!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 18:58
Oil...every man and his dog has an opinion. 
When I bought my Gen 1 Tuono the PO had used 15w/50 Motul 300V full synth; I've used it throughout my ownership. I do limited mileage each year and probably replace the oil and filter way before they actually need replacing; no, make that definitely. The difference between semi and synth is probably negligible considering the oil change intervals of bikes these days, but I'll always stick with the viscosity index recommended by the manufacturer.
On the other hand, when I bought my Audi A3 diesel, it was on extended maintenance, which included 18K mile oil changes. I've left it on the extended maintenance but I do an oil change myself at the half way point. I just don't trust any oil to go the 18,000 mile distance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 19:00
My car's on the VW "Long Life" service regime, calls for an oil change when it thinks it wants one.  Typically that's about 20,000 miles between changes and it's quite happy.  I do 85 miles a day going to work, so it's always running at the right temperature and VW seem confident in the idea.  It's the fourth car I've had on Long Life, no issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 19:07
Yep, I'm guessing as both are VAG, they're on the same maintenance regime and I do 60 mile round trips to work, 20 of which are motorway, so it's not on stop / start mileage but for the price of 4 litres of Halfords best, it gives me a warm feeling Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 19:11
Me too, my last three cars have been Audi with Long Drain oil and extended service intervals. The VW group have been running the regime for over twenty years now (As have others) and would not still be doing it if it were problematic.

I did 55K on my TT in 18 months (2 oil changes) then 245K on my first A4 Quattro and so far 170K on my replacement A4 Quattro and still running like new without losing or burning a drop of oil between changes. All solid and the only engine work I've had done on any of them was routine service items!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Simpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 19:31
I think the VW predictive maintenance system is quite sophisticated, and records not just the kms done, but also the number of cold-engine starts. The oil is also tested for conductivity: as soot (carbon) levels rise the oil becomes more conductive.
With diesels, it's important to take note if the oil level starts to rise. This can mean it is being contaminated by fuel. If the level gets high enough the engine will run away.
I'm told some new Land Rover products are suffering from this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2019 at 07:02
Wow!  Broad agreement in a discussion on engine oil...  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2019 at 08:09
I used 10/40 for years in il4's and my rsv but for the last few I have used 15/50 in the rsv but only because I have been getting it for free, you can't go wrong with either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2019 at 08:57
Originally posted by arlurt arlurt wrote:

Wow!  Broad agreement in a discussion on engine oil...  LOL


Not necessarily, could be more a severe case of  'oil fatigue' and 'can't be arsed to go there again'. WinkLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2019 at 06:46
My "Brembo" brake and clutch reservoir pipe came yesterday, 500mm or it for £7.75 including postage.  It's certainly expensive enough to be special.  I've removed the brake-fluid-sweating fuel hose and fitted the new, proper stuff.  I'll have a look when I get home tonight and see if its dry...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arlurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 10:16
Yep, the new "Brembo hose doesn't sweat brake fluid.  Right, I've got another one to change on another bike.  Smile
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