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Tank swell

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morepower View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morepower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 17:54
That is a KTM tank but its shape is as close as I can find to an RSV tank so would be the closest price of the ones they have listed on the site..
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legend88 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 19:13
Originally posted by Sparky46 Sparky46 wrote:

When I took mine off yesterday noticed that one of the graphics was starting to bubble up

Reckon if someone started knocking out some steel/ally tanks there would be plenty buisness to be had.


That's the thing, anything handmade is going to be expensive. Even someone that knows what they are doing will take a big chunk of hours to hand make an aluminium tank. Multiply those hours by say £20 or more an hour then add in materials and tools and what have you got?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morepower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 20:23
Originally posted by legend88 legend88 wrote:

Originally posted by Sparky46 Sparky46 wrote:

When I took mine off yesterday noticed that one of the graphics was starting to bubble up

Reckon if someone started knocking out some steel/ally tanks there would be plenty buisness to be had.


That's the thing, anything handmade is going to be expensive. Even someone that knows what they are doing will take a big chunk of hours to hand make an aluminium tank. Multiply those hours by say £20 or more an hour then add in materials and tools and what have you got?




For most skilled work like that the hourly rate is higher than £20.00 Gavin at GIA was about £35.00 per hour plus VAT about 6 years ago.. Then there is materials costs too as you point out.  

This is why for me my work is actually cheaper as I have a mould to work from (major expense spread over the expected life of the mould) but each part is made more quickly than a hand beaten part. Material costs are a little higher but to make a full fuel tank by hand could be over a weeks work and is justifiably expensive as you can see from the prices of the Beaters fuel tank prices. I can turn round a fuel tank in 3 or 4 working days. (over a 7 to 10 day period due to the time needed in an oven etc).

Neither tank would be cheap but as long as they are both sealed they will be stable for the life of that part and not attacked by the ethanol.

I still feel any plastic tank will be attacked and swell and using a rigid resin sealer in a tank that is effected by heat and the cold with expansion and contraction to the degree I have seen is not a answer.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 21:06
Originally posted by morepower morepower wrote:


For most skilled work like that the hourly rate is higher than £20.00 Gavin at GIA was about £35.00 per hour plus VAT about 6 years ago.. Then there is materials costs too as you point out.  


Yeah, that's why I said 'or more' as I know that was at the low end of likely labour charges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 21:34
There was someone in the UK doing alloy tanks for all sorts of bikes. But as mentioned they are bloody expensive.

And still need proofing as they would get eaten away quicker than our plastic tanks deform without treatment.
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morepower View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morepower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 23:25
Originally posted by legend88 legend88 wrote:

Originally posted by morepower morepower wrote:


For most skilled work like that the hourly rate is higher than £20.00 Gavin at GIA was about £35.00 per hour plus VAT about 6 years ago.. Then there is materials costs too as you point out.  


Yeah, that's why I said 'or more' as I know that was at the low end of likely labour charges.

YEP.. Its just some have no idea of the time it takes to do the work.  I know I can make a tank faster than someone doing an alloy tank. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morepower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 23:49
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

There was someone in the UK doing alloy tanks for all sorts of bikes. But as mentioned they are bloody expensive.

And still need proofing as they would get eaten away quicker than our plastic tanks deform without treatment.


Here is just one and to be honest it is cheap for an alloy tank. 

http://www.thetuningworks.co.uk/store/product_info.php?products_id=1383

It is not supplied sealed and the tank is not sealed as it seems they do not know how good Ethanol is at absorbing moisture. The pool of water in the bottom of the tank will as you say rot it faster than your plastic ones would swell.. Add in about £60 for a pack of sealer, then painting which would also need the tank to be etch primed. You would be adding at least £300 to the cost of the tank. 

The cheapest option would be to build an low temp oven to dry out your tank.  If you can run it at 30 to 40 degrees on a 1Kw heater with a decent fan for about 2 weeks it would cost about £70 to run it. Make it big enough to put a few fuel tanks in there... It would pay for the cost of building it if you can get a few people to pay you to dry them out... 

It would be a quick fix but it may not be a long term one.It would be better than nothing though..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 11:29
Best thing to do would be say f*kc the ozone and bring back 5* leaded petrol

Selfish? Moi?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 14:38
Totally agree Ian, but unfortunately that isn't an option for us, it looks like ally or treated carbon is our only option.

Mr Morepower, is ethanol corrosion on an aluminium tank really a problem as we are talking 5% ethanol diluted in the fuel? The reason I ask is that there are plenty of ally tanks in service on cafe racers and dirt bikes etc and doing a quick search I cannot find anyone complaining of it so wonder if it's as much of a problem for an ally tank compared to a plastic one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morepower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 20:30
Originally posted by Fugly Fugly wrote:

Totally agree Ian, but unfortunately that isn't an option for us, it looks like ally or treated carbon is our only option.

Mr Morepower, is ethanol corrosion on an aluminium tank really a problem as we are talking 5% ethanol diluted in the fuel? The reason I ask is that there are plenty of ally tanks in service on cafe racers and dirt bikes etc and doing a quick search I cannot find anyone complaining of it so wonder if it's as much of a problem for an ally tank compared to a plastic one.

Ethanol draws moisture from the air as it evaporates. So it is the water that will corrode the alloy tank. 

At up to 0.5% the fuel will hold the water in the fuel. But if it goes above that the water will drop out of the fuel. That water will corrode the alloy.

Putting more fuel into a tank will not help when the bottom of the tank has enough water there to cause what moisture will be in the fresh fuel to drop out. 

If you have a look for ethanol marine fuel you will see how quickly it all goes pear shaped because of the environment it is in.. The UK is not a dry country to be honest and when you ride and air is drawn into the tank as the tank empties the moisture can be absorbed into the fuel.

Its a horrible thing. Additives dont really help as the fuel really wants to absorb the ethanol.. But as soon as water is introduced ethanol prefers to mix with the water. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morepower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 20:33
Ethanol myths

MYTH: fuel additives can cure or prevent all issues from ethanol-blended fuel.

TRUTH: there is no practical additive that can prevent phase separation from occurring. The only practical solution is to keep water from accumulating in the tank in the first place. In addition to using high-quality fuel additives, you should purchase quality fuel from trusted sources, check fuel filters and fuel tanks periodically for sediment and water, and keep up with manufacturer-recommended preventative maintenance schedules.

MYTH: Fuel additives can make phase-separated fuel (that has separated into layers of water and low-octane gas) usable.

TRUTH: “Bad” fuel should be completely removed and replaced with fresh fuel. Nothing can rejuvenate old fuel. To prevent fuel from going bad, most manufacturers recommend high-quality fuel additives to prevent sediment, gum and varnish buildup that forms when fuel goes bad, control moisture, help prevent phase separation and prevent fuel system corrosion.

MYTH: Ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided.

TRUTH: Ethanol blended fuels (E10) are common throughout much of the United States. After the transition period from non-ethanol fuel, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel, as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system “dry”. For over a decade, marine engines have been engineered to handle E10 gasoline. However, all types of fuels should be treated if they won’t be used in a few weeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 10:42
How about a drain tap at the bottom of the tank to drain the water ? bit like aircraft use?

Before flying,you always open the tank drain and fill a glass container with fuel to check the level of water content




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2016 at 23:12
Just done my annual swollen tank test.
My little test on this is when I clean the RSVR Mille over winter.
Ran on BP Super Unleaded all summer and just lifted the tank with no issues, i.e. has not swollen due to ethanol!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morepower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 09:12
Originally posted by DrD DrD wrote:

Just done my annual swollen tank test.
My little test on this is when I clean the RSVR Mille over winter.
Ran on BP Super Unleaded all summer and just lifted the tank with no issues, i.e. has not swollen due to ethanol!


BP super unleaded is one of the few fuels that has no ethanol. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trumpetman21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 11:00
I wouldn't be too certain of that.

I emailed them earlier this month and they can't confirm that there is no ethanol in their super unleaded grade.

This has already been posted in the ethanol in fuel thread elsewhere on the forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 11:21
I thought I'd read that somewhere Confused

Isn't Esso the only one to say that their premium grade is Ethanol free?

Even if that's true now I don't suppose it will stay that way for ever,I think we just have to except decent fuel will soon be a thing of the past just like leaded 5*   Remember that? Wink



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 12:00
Wonder what kind of tanks they`ve got on them flex-fuel motorbikes ... Question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trumpetman21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 13:21
I've no doubt bio ethanol will be mandated in all pump fuel before too long.
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