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JMH's 1060 Big Bore project

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Topic: JMH's 1060 Big Bore project
Posted By: JMH
Subject: JMH's 1060 Big Bore project
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 09:00

Time to start this thread. Below a cunning plan plus acquired items and to be acquired items:

Plan:
Gen1 engine with Griff’s 1060 kit + Gen2 heads & Gen2 TBs + Edwards airbox with OEM paper filter. JS Performance hoses. The cherry on the cake is TSS slipper clutch. By the way, has anyone got one for sale?

The engine is a 70 tkm Gen1 engine from 2002 Mille. It will be taken apart and checked for wear and tear. For this reason I ask if anyone has good condition Gen1 engine spares in case I need them. I guess it is mainly gearbox related but con rod bearings and such can come to question.


Once the heads and barrels are out the barrels will be shipped to Apriliaperformance and the disassembling of the lower end continues. Hopefully all is good there so that the engine, equipped with TSS slipper clutch now, is ready for the new 1060 barrels and pistons once they come.


After that the tinkering to mate the Gen2 heads to the engine continues. Hopefully the engine is in the frame in January/ February so that that the TB can be mounted and I guess there was a way to use the original idle tuning with the Gen2 TB.


March time could be starting the engine and getting it to a dyno room for 1-2 hours.



Heads 240 € (Korvanto, bike wrecker)
TBs 40 € (Korvanto, bike wrecker)
GEN2 downpipes 0 (Korvanto, bike wrecker)
postage 10,8 €
Edwards airbox bottom 76 € (AF1 forum user from Sweden)
GEN2 tuono stacks 0 € (AF1 forum user from Sweden)
Wiring adapters to the jets 0 € (AF1 forum user from Sweden)
PCIII 100 € (Motorg forum user FIN)
TSS slipper 644,64 € (Ducati Kämna)
Valve stem seals 43,67 € (ebay UK, aftermarket)
Clutch cover gasket 15,53 € (Athena)
Stator cover gasket 13,83 € (Athena)
JS Performance hoses & clips 172,81 € (JS Performance)
Divot pins to heads and cylinders 42,1 € (Wendel Morräder)
Gasket between engine casings 73 € (BikeWorld Raisio, FIN)
Conrod bolts 137,2 € (Wendel)
Seals to clutch rod, gear shift shaft and counter shaft 16,4 (Tampereen Laakerikeskus, bearing center in Tampere FIN)
Gen 06 gearbox and clutch crown 182,83 € (AF1 forum user from England, the box never came to use)
Big Bore 1060 kit with gaskets 1 362,17 € (Aprilia Performance UK)
Bushings for crank and balance shaft 293,72 € (BikeWorld Raisio, FIN)
Oil pump gears 99,98 € (BikeWorls Raisio, FIN)
EBC clutch springs 13 € (Storm Motor, FIN)
Machining of the heads + check up and machining the cam sprockets + installation of the crank & balancer bushings 325 € (local blacksmith)
Gabron hybrid chip 207.15 €
Exhaust stud nuts 13.6 € (Wendel)
Welding of the Gen2 flanges to GenI 2-2 Akra 200 € (even more local blacksmith)
Dyno 250 € (Vittaniemi, FIN)
Dyno 2.0 160 € (DynoSipi @ Bike Fellows)
OEM jets 152 € (Aprilia Superstore, optimizing here already)
RSVR stacks 20 € (Bike World)

TOT: 5 005,43 €.


STAGE 2.0 (Cam improvent)

OEM Billet intake cams 329,96 € (Gabro)
Kent APR03 intake cams + buckets 870,02 € (KENT)
Cam chains 454,11 € (AF1)
Short cam sprocket bolts 24,5 € (Wendel)
Long cam sprocket bolts 12,5 € (AF1)
Flywheel puller 17,74 € (AF1)
Stator & clutch housing gaskets 71,94 € (AF1)
Slotted cam sprockets 189,31 € (AF1)

TOT: 1 970,08 €


Questions will be asked and if you have parts related to this project for sale, please offer them to me in an affordable manner

Finally, the target is 140 hp on the rearwheel. How hard could it be?

Edit: Comparison graph from the standard engine taken out from the frame. Not same engine that was tuned. Only performance modification is 2-2 Akra.




-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.



Replies:
Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 10:48
The idle adjust / cold start mech swaps over from gen1 to gen2 throttle bodies

Fit gen2 conrods they are stronger

Are you going slotted cam sprockets ? 106/109?

Smaltmoto have tss for 629 euros


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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 11:06
Timing will be checked before the decision to slot the cams. Kämna Ducati has also TSS at roughly the same price.

I will stick to Gen1 rods as the change to Gen2 would apparently include some hassle with lubrication of the big end. Additionally the Gen1 rods seem to be good for 200+ hp as the local Gen1 Turbuono has showed.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 12:37
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

the local Gen1 Turbuono has showed.
think I have a photo of that somewhere does have a big turbo hanging out the side??


Edit...found it



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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 12:50
That is it.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: snowman
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 16:42
Not a very nice looking bike IMO ????


Posted By: Af1
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 17:08

Ideal bike if you only have one leg ! Surprised it never caught on...


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 18:33
Originally posted by Af1 Af1 wrote:


Ideal bike if you only have one leg ! Surprised it never caught on...
right leg so you can keep it warm?

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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 09:45
Acquired:
Gen 2 Heads
Gen 2 TB
57 mm intake funnels
Gen 2 down pipes
Edwards airbox lower half
Adapters to the jets
PCIII
TSS slipper clutch
JSPerformance silicone hoses & clips
Valve stem seals, cutch cover gasket, generator cover gasket
1 457,28 €

To be acquired:
Gabro chip
1060 BigBore kit with head & bottom gaskets and pistons
Updated parts list. Still moaning about not having editing rights Cry


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 09:50
Disassembly could commence in mid/ late October.
As for the TB I have a question. The "choke" can be set on the Gen2 TB but did that one have the idle adjusting knob on the right hand side of the engine?


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 12:47
Yes r/h side. Swap your Gen 1 fast idle mechanism over onto the gen 2 tb's.


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Question everything.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 13:08
Originally posted by Diablo Diablo wrote:

Yes r/h side. Swap your Gen 1 fast idle mechanism over onto the gen 2 tb's.
 
about 30 mins work tops to swap the mech. over
 
take a look at some pics in this thread...but once you have the 57's and 51's in front of you it will all become clear
 
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?281440-Saying-goodbye-to-the-F255-and-hello-to-the-A2BF-or-how-I-went-from-51s-to-57s/page3" rel="nofollow - http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?281440-Saying-goodbye-to-the-F255-and-hello-to-the-A2BF-or-how-I-went-from-51s-to-57s/page3
 


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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 17:09
Does anyone have pictures of the weld jobs how they have mated the Gen2 downpipes with the Gen1 2-2 Akra?
 
Is there enough length to make the Gen2 downpipe round so that you do not need to modify the Akra system?


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 00:36
I spoke to Griff about this very briefly a while back.

He mentioned about getting some flanges made up and I presumed for this purpose, as I'm wanting to run a Gen 1 Arrow system, on a Gen 2 1060 motor I've got (going in a Gen 1).

I'll be speaking to him hopefully in the next few days, so I'll make a note to ask him about it again buddy.

If not I'll just be cutting some Gen 2 headers and welding those in.




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Question everything.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 05:13
Cheers.
 
Btw. Have not followed image hosting possibilities since photobucket shafted us. Are there any FOC ones left?


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 15:31
I've been using Flickr since PhotoBucket pulled the plug. But make sure your settings on there are set to private, if you use it, or people can look through all your pics.  PB ruined the whole thread about my bike. It would be easier to start another thread than try to replace everything Ouch

Better and easier still, You don't need an account with image hosters, you can post direct from your pc on here.

If you click on the white arrow, 2nd from the right at the top, when making a post or replying to one, it takes you to the full reply editor -you will see a little green tree on the top row, 4th from the right. Click on that to upload any photo's direct from your pc. You might have to reduce some in size, as I think the maximum size is 2mb Thumbs Up




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Question everything.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 22:10
^
Cheers.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: j180
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 23:44
Postimage is also good for sharing to forums.


Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 13:34
JMH, I've just remembered, you need to be a premium member to post from your pc (I think).

I think it's only about 5 quid. It gives you access to the online manuals as well.

If not, I can only say Flickr, as that's the only one I've used other than Photo*ucket.


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Question everything.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 21:54
Engine dropped to the builder today. Dissasembly will commence 21.10.
I'll be there.
 
By the way, do you know if Griff has slotted cam gears?
 
Secondly, if/ when the Gen2 heads need straightening how much can be afforded?


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 22:33
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:


Engine dropped to the builder today. Dissasembly will commence 21.10.
I'll be there.
 
By the way, do you know if Griff has slotted cam gears?
 
Secondly, if/ when the Gen2 heads need straightening how much can be afforded?
no he hasn't got the slotted cam wheels.

Sure there is a thread by Micah or amaurai on af1 regarding skimming the heads

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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 22:36
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?333768-Adding-compression-and-head-porting-ideas&highlight=Skimming" rel="nofollow - http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?333768-Adding-compression-and-head-porting-ideas&highlight=Skimming

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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: apriliapista
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 05:44
Af1 sells slotted cam sprockets ,
But it's easy to do yourself!


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 16:56
^
I knew that but remembered that the price was higher than what it is. $100 plus postage when I give my old ones in return (well, I have three sets anyway at the moment).
 
Next to this mate of mine doing the engine job with me lives a guy with a shop and he does pretty much what he wants so my mate will ask him about the gears at the same time he asks about straightening the heads.
 
That would be the place to do the exhaust as well as it looks to me it is best to have the engine in place for that job.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: apriliapista
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 23:25
Yes I remember it was a lot of money ( not necessarily expensive?). If you have 3 sets just slot all and sell 2 of them, I'm sure there's members out there who needs a set.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 19:02
Information needed on Gen2 correct valve spring length:

The measurement on the used head gives vs. [manual]

Inner: 39 mm vs. [40,9 mm]
Outer: 42 mm vs. [43,4 mm]

Is the spec in the manual correct, the manufacturing done on Monday or what is going on? New springs would set me off ~500 €. Would need 16 of them.

Does aynone have an insight?

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 19:42
It appears the wear limits for the Gen1 valve springs are the same so maybe they would fit, or?

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 18:50
^
Update on valve springs. The measured ones are going in. Advice from Micah/ Gabro received so good to go regarding that. Then...
 
The barrels are on their way to Griff at Aprilia Performance UK and I'll have a small update post to do with pics. Before I have the time to do this I would have a question(s).

The conrod bolt tightening instructions can be found in the old manual, which I have. It says to use new bolts every time. The engine will be split to check the gearbox so that it does not sh*t itself with more power on the tap so at the same time the big end bearings could be checked as well.

OK, have you engine builders done this every time (they are ~30 €/ each)?
Is it a normal procedure to check them in a build like this in Rotax engines? After all, the engine is 70 tkm. The crank bearings and such will be left alone.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 07:35
New bolts at every use. That is the way to go with V2s.
 
Bugger.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 08:37
As said the barrels are out and on the way to Griff. The old ones looked good as new after 70 tkm.



This conversion has been covered here before but the pictures are gone due to Photobucket shafting us. So, about the heads.

The camshaft position sensor Gen1 vs. Gen2 in the front cylinder

Inside the valve cover vs. outside the valve cover
Exhaust cam gear vs. intake cam gear
Pin inside the gear vs. pin outside the gear

As the sensor is inside you need the Gen1 valve cover as it has a slot for it. Additionally, the camshaft support in Gen1 has threads for the sensor and the Gen2 one has only holes. So you need threads made in it. There is an X mark between the two holes in the support.

The Gen2 head makes contact with the valve cover so some machining is needed to take material out. The exact amount is known when the heads come from the shop. Additionally, a slot needs to be machined so that the cam sensor wiring can be taken out the same way as in Gen1 heads. For the rear cylinder both Gen1 & Gen2 covers go.

As for slotting the cam gears we have decided to slot the Gen1 gears for the front cylinder and the Gen2 gears for the rear cylinder. This is because of the pin location in the gear. No need to take it out then.





Piston ring end cap was a question but Griff at Aprilia Performance is able to hone this as our final build spec was given to him. The piston pin offset is no worry. The OEM pistons have a 1mm offset to the rear of the engine but the kit pistons are symmetrical.

Some small worries as well. As the clutch was taken out it was seen that the one of the end plates on the springs behind the outer basket was cracked. Everything was still there, though. I have another used set of those springs and end plates so it is a matter of putting together the tightest package I can get out of those.

Oh... and the divot pins were pretty tight in the heads and in the cylinder and some of them in the heads got a bit mullered so I ordered new ones. 8 pcs.

I guess, this is it for now. More in November when we take the next push.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 12:11
Great thread buddy, lots of info Thumbs Up

I've got to do the cam sensor as well. I'm going to need a spare gen 1 cam cover. Shame I just bought a couple of extra gen 2 ones.

Though my BB engine's already built, it's gen 2 motor into gen 1, so little bit of extra work/prep to put it in is all really. 

Keep the updates coming Thumbs Up






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Question everything.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 19:26
Oh hell... somehow I thought I needed 8 bolts. Now the cost has become half after the realization I need 4. No biggie.

Happy days.
 
And cheers Diablo.
 


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 19:58
I'll make a bigger update in a couple of weeks time but for the time being I know I need new crank and balance shaft bushings. Bugger. My mate could not see the color code on them so measurement is needed on the crank shaft or is the practice so that they are the same code as conrod bearings?

Speaking of which, I doubt they need replacing as well once we take a peek at those. I doubt they have survived if the other bushings are grinning copper.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 19:59
The positive was that the shafts looked OK.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 13:44
Hi, this is the correct order for the TSS slipper
Fibre first then metal then fibre then metal then metal then alternate to the end with one metal missing.
They don't make that clear in the instructions.
It means that the last plate which is in contact with the pressure plate is a fibre. Also you leave one steel plate out.
If you don't have the stack height measurements, I could look them up for you.
You may want to put a Surflex plate kit to take the extra power.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 14:56
^
All info on the slipper is welcome. For now I was thinking about using the old plates as they all looked good. You think they will slip?
 


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 14:57
The setup also means the stack height is smaller by one metal plate thickness. There is no compensation.
 


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 16:32
Hi, you could give it a go with the oem plates as it not a big job to replace. I was going to put a Surflex kit in preparation for a future 1103 big Bore running four cast one piece cams but I had exceeded and my budget for that time so I put some Ferodo friction plates and roughed up the steels.
About 70 quid.
The stack height measurements is the difference between the empty basket and an assembled clutch, measuring with a depth gauge, the difference you must try to achieve is 0.6mm to 1.2mm and 1.2 being optimum.
Even with new friction plates the best I could achieve was 0.9, but it's fine with that with just about the right amount of slip and only slips just when you think it might lock, so engine braking is still optimum. I must say it brilliant bit of kit, transforms the bike.
The little riding I did get in which wasn't much with the slipper, I couldn't praise it enough, even managed to back in one time when using it hard, definitely increases confidence.
I have the instructions for the slipper, but because the translation they are not consise so got in touch with Yoyodyne who in turn got in touch with TSS to get it sorted.
You will have to put two steels together like I said to achieve the correct order as the previous owner explained aswell and confirmed by Tss. If you do need any further help just ask.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 16:39
Should have explained that better, assemble the clutch with pressure plate only and no other plates and measure the depth from the face of the pressure plate to the Base of the basket.
It's done through one of the holes in the pressure plate, then do it with the plates in.
The difference should be between 0.6mm to 1.2 mm.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 16:58
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Should have explained that better, assemble the clutch with pressure plate only and no other plates and measure the depth from the face of the pressure plate to the Base of the basket.
It's done through one of the holes in the pressure plate, then do it with the plates in.
The difference should be between 0.6mm to 1.2 mm.
 
Got it.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 17:48
What piston to valve clearances are you running on your build, exhaust and inlet.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 18:14
^
Dont' know actually. What does it become with the Aprilia Performance 1060 pistons and gaskets? I suppose someone has actually measured. The heads are standard Gen2 heads.
 
It should be well in the safe side in any case.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 18:15
The heads are measured for straightness but I believe they should be straight or need very minute touches at maximum. No decking.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 21:26
The parts & cost list on the first post has been updated and as you may see not much will be left from the original engine.

The conrod bolts, cylinder and cylinder head guide pins have arrived as well as the gasket for the case halves. A new(ish) gearbox and clutch basket are on their way from Tash and Griff just finalised the piston ring gapping. So. let us take a look at what has been going on recently:

Here's Griff with a new shiny part.



As you may know splitting the cases require complete dissasembly of both stator and clutch side as some of the crank case bolts are behind the starter gears and the flywheel. The flyhweel does come of with muscles and heat if your extractor does not fit your impact wrench.



After that it will take some patience and in this case four hands to get the cases split. Voilá!





At this point we started to endure some pain as you know if you have read above.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 21:26
Yes, yes, there are some marks in the cases but they are not bad. Some polish and it'll be as good as new. The engine has run in funny positions or maybe it is something else that have caused the crank to very very gently touch the cases.

Anyway, the balancer and crank bearings were mullered but happily the conrod bearings were as good as new and the crank was shiny in the right bits. The sad thing is that no color code marking was left inside the crank cases. We need to get the bearing housings on the case halves measured in order to get the correct bearing size. No biggie for a professional with the right tools. I could not do it with my eyes.



As said, new conrod bolts have landed. While you split the cases you end up replacing some shaft seals. Namely clutch rod, gear selector shaft and secondary drive shaft. OEM ones would have set me off by ~90 € but a nearby bearings shop had the correct ones. Well, the parts list say for the secondary drive shaft to have 30x47x7,5 but 30x47x7 will do just as fine.

The newish gearbox and clutch basket are from a ~2000 mile 06 Gen2 bike. The gearbox is the closed ratio one and I made some acceleration curves with the drive ratios for Gen1 & Gen2. When you look at the clutch pictures you can see the three screws holding together the basket, gear and the shock springs and their plates. The clutch that came out had two of those broken once and as I had written before now one of the end plates on one of the shock springs was cracked. I lost faith on that part.





Some acceleration curves. (bad quality, sorry)

Old:

New:


Ratios in numbers:

New: Old:
1,935 1,935 Primary
2,267 2,500 1
1,632 1,750 2
1,300 1,368 3
1,091 1,090 4
0,960 0,956 5
0,885 0,851 6

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 21:28
What else....

Well, the oil pump gears will be renewed. The manual says to change them every time you dissasemble them. I cannot see anything wrong with them and I suppose the manual writer has not had in mind that a 70 tkm engine will been butchered three times and thinks that once there is a true reason to open things it is time to change the plastic gears.

Anyway, the gear behind the clutch sees daylight for the third time and the driven gear for the second time and they are OIL PUMP gears. I'll get some new ones.

Gabro mentioned earlier about the soft touch on the heads in seat transit area. I was a bit lost with this instruction but the person doing the heads was on the same page and he'll check this.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 07:52
don't think many of us have seen that much inside the rotax lump so keep the pics coming its all good Thumbs Up

-------------


www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 14:02
Still no editing rights so cannot put this to the opening post.
 
Cost update:
 
Acquired:
Gen 2 Heads
Gen 2 TB
57 mm intake funnels
Gen 2 down pipes
Edwards airbox lower half
Adapters to the jets
PCIII
TSS slipper clutch
JSPerformance silicone hoses & clips
Valve stem seals, cutch cover gasket, generator cover gasket
Divot pins
Crank case gasket
Con rod bolts
Clutch rod, gear and secondary drive shaft seals
06 Gen2 clutch basket and compelete gearbox
Aprilia Performance 1060 BB kit

3 270,98 €

To be acquired:
Bushings for crank and balancer shaft
Gabro chip
Adjustable cam gears
Pipe welding
Work on the heads & crank case halves


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 16:27
How do I edit posts?
Unless you are a Forum Moderator or an Administrator you can only edit your own posts and only if the forum administrator has created the relevant rights for you to do so. When you edit your posts depending on the forum setup, it will display the username, time, and date of when the post was edited at the bottom of the post.
http://www.rsvr.net/forum_FAQ.html#top" rel="nofollow -

www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 17:02
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

How do I edit posts?
Unless you are a Forum Moderator or an Administrator you can only edit your own posts and only if the forum administrator has created the relevant rights for you to do so. When you edit your posts depending on the forum setup, it will display the username, time, and date of when the post was edited at the bottom of the post.
http://www.rsvr.net/forum_FAQ.html#top" rel="nofollow -


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 17:05
On a serious note I just get a tiny bit annoyed when I see clear thinking, spelling or grammar errors in my posts. Like above (much giggly thing)

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 17:07
LOLLOLLOL

-------------


www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 20:30
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Hi, this is the correct order for the TSS slipper
Fibre first then metal then fibre then metal then metal then alternate to the end with one metal missing.
They don't make that clear in the instructions.
It means that the last plate which is in contact with the pressure plate is a fibre. Also you leave one steel plate out.
If you don't have the stack height measurements, I could look them up for you.
You may want to put a Surflex plate kit to take the extra power.
 
Does this mean that the steel plate left out is the bottom one with the marking?


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2017 at 19:45
Short update:

Both shafts should get yellow bearings. Actually, the bearing housing diameters are sligthly above than what given in the manual. So, once the yellow bearings are installed we will measure the diameter of the bearing housings and the crankshaft so that we can calculate the gap. I have lost a little faith to the manual...

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2017 at 19:46
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Hi, this is the correct order for the TSS slipper
Fibre first then metal then fibre then metal then metal then alternate to the end with one metal missing.
They don't make that clear in the instructions.
It means that the last plate which is in contact with the pressure plate is a fibre. Also you leave one steel plate out.
If you don't have the stack height measurements, I could look them up for you.
You may want to put a Surflex plate kit to take the extra power.
 
Does this mean that the steel plate left out is the bottom one with the marking?
 
Hello!?


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 02:55
Hi, you can leave the one with the notch out it doesn't matter, the steels differ in thickness a little so depending on if you are trying to make the stack thicker or thinner will determine which one you leave out.
I noticed you bought a new clutch housing gasket, if the old is OK I would cut that one, I used a small pair of scissors, which ever one you use you are going to have to cut it into a normal gasket as you no longer need the Diaphragm part of the gasket I also removed the fixing nut and washer at the end of the clutch push rod.
Don't forget to rough up the steels before putting them back in to stop the clutch sliping.
If you got to sets of clutch plates you could pick from both sets to get close to the optimum height.
Apparently with the Surflex kit you get different thickness plates by .5 of mm so it would have been easier.
As long as you are in the tolerances .6 to 1.2 you should be fine.
I bought the new Ferodo frictions to make the stack height bigger thinking that the the oem ones were worn, but it only made .1 mm of a difference. Maybe the oem were fatter when new, like I said I manage to achieve 0.9 and it was perfect.
You may want to use stronger springs in yours because of the extra power, I will when I go 1103.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 03:17

In the first picture you can see the clutch fitted, you just have to trim the
gasket / Diaphragm to the casing.
In the second pic you can see the clutch vaccum hose has been blanked off where the two Jubilee clips are. Just use a metal dowel or a part of a bolt inside the pipe.
I would give the clutch cover a good clean inside as now it will have oil running in it because the Diaphragm has been removed.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 07:43
Thanks!
 
Will be reflecting to this once the engine starts to go together. Order on bearings is made so we wait for them. Some little fiddling will take place end of next week.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 21:56
Hi JMH, what sort of work are you doing to the heads,are you doing any porting or any multi angle valve seat cuts.
Are the cams you using, pressed ones or the one piece which are 06 onwards.
Also when you say adapters for jets, do mean the plugs for the injectors. I am always interested in individual builds and how people go about it.
That's quite a bit of money for the bottom end rebuild. I may look for a low mileage engine than buy one with high miles and build the bottom end. Good luck with your build, it sounds very promising.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 07:10
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Hi JMH, what sort of work are you doing to the heads,are you doing any porting or any multi angle valve seat cuts.
Are the cams you using, pressed ones or the one piece which are 06 onwards.
Also when you say adapters for jets, do mean the plugs for the injectors. I am always interested in individual builds and how people go about it.
That's quite a bit of money for the bottom end rebuild. I may look for a low mileage engine than buy one with high miles and build the bottom end. Good luck with your build, it sounds very promising.
 
 
 
Gabro adviced that a "soft touch" in seat transit area is enough. That is the aluminum cast just above the seats. We will look into to this and maybe some other little fiddle.
 
Yes, I mean the plugs for the injectors. As a matter of fact I am looking into this today.
 
The cams are before 06 so I check if some security can be welded onto them. If not, we'll leave them be.
 
You are correct about a low mileage engine. I just happened to have mine lying around in the garage corner and needed to find some use to it.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 14:07
Hi, Gabro had a set of cams ( welded ones) with a long duration, I think he wanted €300 for them, he offered them to me, but I had already acquired the one piece cams by then. He may still have them and all inlets. Instead of the power finishing at 9.6k it will finish at 10.4 which is quite an improvement. But this may affect your piston to valve clearances.
Gabro is an absolute gentleman, very helpfull and knowledgeable always exploring new ideas like Micah. Them cams just a thought, I think they have been modified too, I think the duration of an inlet cam is about 270 degrees and the one he offered me might have had a bit more.
What valve timing are you going to run?


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 19:08
No sure about the timing. I do not need excessive midrange to make it unrideable so maybe 110/114 or something like that.
 


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 19:09
A bit daft question. I've read about these 51->57 TB conversions and how you need to put the cold start mechanism to the newer and larger TB. When I looked at my old one and future one the only thing I needed to take from the old was the intake pressure sensor as the new one did not have this plugged. There is even a place for the idle tuning knob. You just screw it in place.

Do I have this right now:

57 mm to the right.
As I will have the TSS slipper I do not use the vacuum lines. The newer one has some extra tubes, which went to the airbox if I remember correctly. I just plug all the four holes marked with red:


57 mm on the right
Red dots for throttle cables, blue dot for the cold start cable and the green dot accepts the idle adjuster knob. (the one from the old one was bent so I'll use the one still in the bike. I have many TBs)


So, the immense work was to clean the old TB and get the intake pressure sensor (green dot) out and connect it to the lines marked with red dots.


I also checked the adapters for the jets I got from Raimo from Sweden. They are all good. I can get the PCII plugged to the new larger TB.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2017 at 07:04
I found out that early 2004 TBs can be like that.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2017 at 19:05
Last weekend we made some layer cakes. Bottom with a“new” cylinder, mid 04 Gen2 head and on top my good old valve cover.



One mistake was observed though. We had the M5 threads done to the cam supportbut missed the fact that the sensor support has short 7 mm diameter guidance sleeves, or whatever. So, we will have that redone.


The heads were checked for straightness and sealing and they were OK. No porting was done after all and we also decided not to TIG weld the cam lobes to the shafts as the cams are standard as well as the valve springs.


The machined front head:



The sensor support



And these holes need some regrinding



The camsprockets were also machined to enable adjustment.

These goodies went in



We put the pistons in from the top and checked that there is just enough space to put the piston pin in place from under without taking the piston too far out.
The piston fiddling was a patient man’s game as the three-piece lowest oil ring was tricky. But we got there eventually. The top compression rings were quite easy. All was done by hand with a small screwdriver as the tool.

The manual says to place the piston ring gaps with 120 degree spacing. This did not satisfy my mate and he checked what the samurais would do (Yamaha). So, we ended up the two gaps of the lowest oil ring with roughly a 90 degree spacing on the exhaust side and the top compression rings with a ~90 degree spacing on the intake side. I cannot remember where we put the lowest oil ring spacer ring gap. Somewhere probably.


The crank and balancer bushings have arrived so by end of next week they will be in their place. The diameter of the bores will be measured as well as the crank diameter.
The clutch and gearbox are on their way and hopefully are in time so that we can start to put the engine together end of next week.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 07:45
A have a question about clutch springs. What to use with the TSS slipper and increased power?
 
Old OEM ones
EBC 10% stiffer
Barnett heavy duty ones
 
Any experience?


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: Paddedcell100
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 08:57
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:


A have a question about clutch springs. What to use with the TSS slipper and increased power?
 
Old OEM ones
EBC 10% stiffer
Barnett heavy duty ones
 
Any experience?


I picked my bike up from AP a few weeks ago after having a 1060 build and a TSS and Surflex fitted, I asked them to stick a set of heavy duty Barnett springs in mine (as recommended by Hemi, as that was the same set up he's got in his 1103).
It's only a few weeks old but all good so far, finding neutral is a bit of a game still but you can usually get it as you are rolling to a stop with a couple of up and downs and I'd rather have a clutch that can take the power than one that finds neutral easily.

-------------
Better to have something you don't need than need something you don't have....


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 10:17
OK.
 
Might need to add the springs to the list at least.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 11:53
Maybe I'll go with the old standard friction plates and old standard roughened steel plates together with 10% stiffer EBC springs and the higher preload the kit offers.
 
Springs are only 13 €.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: Paddedcell100
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 15:44
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:


Maybe I'll go with the old standard friction plates and old standard roughened steel plates together with 10% stiffer EBC springs and the higher preload the kit offers.
 
Springs are only 13 €.


I think the struggle to find neutral aspect is a signature thing with the Surflex clutch pack , on these bikes anyway.

its a bit of a pain but unless you were going to use it for commuting or doing a lot of town/city miles(on a 1060 kitted bike? )then it's something im.happy to live with for a clutch that's up to the job of handling the extra power.
I only went for a Surflex after asking Hemi what he used and him telling me that a Barnett clutch soon started slipping after his 1103 build, so that's the way I decided to go as well, I think AP use an EBC clutch combined with Barnett springs normally mind you🤔

-------------
Better to have something you don't need than need something you don't have....


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2017 at 15:53
I'll measure the stack on the used ones first as per RSV manual before deciding on new plates. If within spec I'll stick to them. If not, maybe new EBC plates. We'll see. At least the springs are on order.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2017 at 23:15
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Hi, this is the correct order for the TSS slipper
Fibre first then metal then fibre then metal then metal then alternate to the end with one metal missing.
They don't make that clear in the instructions.
It means that the last plate which is in contact with the pressure plate is a fibre. Also you leave one steel plate out.
If you don't have the stack height measurements, I could look them up for you.
You may want to put a Surflex plate kit to take the extra power.
 
A small update is coming but I am still coming back to this.
 
S=steel F-friction
 
Engine..................................................................................................clutch pressure plate
 
Standard one:
1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
$|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S
 
Suggested one for TSS:
1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8
F|S|F|S|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F
 
How I still think it should be for TSS as two steel plates agains each other does not make any sense. It is still a clutch working just the same and there is just the lifting movement to ease up the pressure on the stack. Also, most clutches have fibre plates top and bottom. So, no steel plates against each other but the bottom marked steel plate should go missing as it does on the Sigma clutch as well.
 
1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8
F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S|F|S
 
 
I do understand that if you want to have 18 plates in total and friction on top and bottom the suggested one is the way to go. I just cannot get my head around that suggestion.
 
 
 


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 00:00
As dog78 told you it's odd but it works don t try and reinvent the wheel listen to people that have the tss working with the clutch plates as suggested

-------------


www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 01:05
I had the same problem about getting my head around it, but after getting it from Tss and Yoyodyne. But that order with the two steels together made sense and I also discussed it with Tapmyhead who built his own 1103 motor building his own manual cam chain adjusters and a very competent engineer, he also agreed with that order. The oem has the steel against the pressure plate which don't sit right with me.
Having two steels together is just like having a fat or thick steel plate. They are both on splines so like I say it's just a thick plate. it's how Shane had it Newzeland whom I bought it of, I did try it both ways but it definitely works better the way i said. Yoyodyne, Tss insist you must have a fibre against the pressure plate so that is the only way to achieve that. It's perfect so I would go with what they say and the previous owner of my clutch.
Remember the clutch is going behave in a totally different way from standard so that may be the reason. I think Adam's is setup different to mine and he's struggling to get it in Neutral. Mine has always had that problem and it was the same with the oem clutch and I know the problem is the slave or to much freeway also the jet has not been done on mine. So people do fit it the other way but I went down the recommended and proven route.
I can't get my head round how you can back it in 😂


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 01:15
You also said most clutches have friction top and bottom which is what you end up with two steels together. The oem is not setup like most clutches.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 07:58
OK OK maybe I just need to
 
Was it the marked bottom steel you left out? That is how I would do it then.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 08:34
Yes it was that one that I left out. Haha you don't need that much leap of faith bud.
It took me a lot working out trying to understand it, but there is a few factors to take into account,
1 you got to have an odd number of plates to finish with the same plate top and bottom.
2 by putting the two steels together it makes it one plate which then makes it an odd number as they would count as one, just think of it as a a thick plate you made, the two steel plates are touching on splines so stay stationary to each other as they are locked together by the spines.
Shane that I bought the clutch from run it that order for 1500 race kilometres.
When you get your head around the 2 points I made you will see it in your head.
I seen people doing it the other way and it's wrong, like you say most clutches start and finish with the fibre.
The only thing I can think of with the oem order, that it was so that when the Diaphragm pulled on the clutch rod the pressure plate lifted cleanly of the steel plate underneath as the fibre may have stuck to it.
Get it together and we will see at the Aprilia trackday 17th July at Donington, bit of a trip for though. Good luck, MMD.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 08:54
I have just finished porting one head, valve guides left the same length but shaped. Getting the three angle valve cut in the new year, then I shall get a comparison on a flow bench to see the difference in the CFM between the two. May go down Redratbike suggestion with Epoxy resin on the inlet tracks. I would like to get an increase 30% would be great also a thirty degree cut back on the inlet valves.
I noticed in your pics the piston boxes said Omega, is that the make of pistons you are using?


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 09:52
^
Yes. That is what came from apriliaperformance. Interested in details of your port job and flow bench results as the workshop that pressed the crank/ balancer bushings will get a flow bench next year.
 
Maybe....Tongue
 
And fookin' hell. I can edit my posts now.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2017 at 09:44
There is a slight delay in the project and I’ll explain why. I bought a clutch basket and Gen2 gearbox from Tash but there was a small hick up that has been corrected by Tash, so credit to him. Anyway, the clutch basket got damaged during the transport so what I did as a plan B I got the damping springs and plates from it and used my old basket. As I looked at the gearbox it was missing one gear on one of the shafts and I was first like bugger. Then I realized the box was Gen1 type and most of the gears looked better than on mine and the ones that were not so good were OK on mine. So, I ordered new circlips for ~30 € and assembled a good Gen1 gearbox as a plan B for the gearbox.

Meanwhile Tash rolled up his sleeves and sent me a new clutch and the gearbox he was supposed to send. He must have a parts pile there (giggly thing). Anyway, the replacement shipment is coming to me at no cost so hats off to Tash. What a sport.

During the weekend on week 50 we look at what clutch and gearbox goes into the machine as the assembly begins for real.


I had two old clutch stacks, which measured 46,7-46,8 mm and 47,0-47,1 mm. I will use the thicker one and I roughened the steel plates gently with 120 grit sandpaper and washed the plates with soap water to get rid off any loose steel particles. I suppose the roughing is more like honing and the plates get a better oil film and then do not get build up so easily. The plate order has been solved above so nothing about that. Just as a reminder I ordered the EBC clutch springs (10% stiffer) and I will use the longer spacers from the TSS clutch.

The crank and balancer bushings got in place (all yellow) and measurements were made. The clearance for crank is calculated with the thinner end so from the thicker end you need to take out 0.005 mm.


Crank

Left:45,950
Right:45,955

Clearances:

Left vertical +,03; Left horizontal +,04
Right vertical +0,04 (minus 0,005) Right horizontal +,06 (minus 0,005)

Balancer
31,99
31,99
Clearance:+0,05

The assembly grease used was Red Line Assembly Lube. That candy looking paste is known not to cause any clutch issues.

Picture of the old bushings:


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2017 at 21:09
A bigger update to write as the engine is as far as ready to be measured for timing. A question before that, though.

As we assembled the engine I noticed something funny I did not realize while taking it apart. The coolant pump drive gear sits closest to the engine on the balance shaft. When you put it together the lower washer, the drive gear and the upper washer all pass the key on the shaft and the gear is held to its position by pressure from the "gear stack" it has in front of it. There was no other way putting it together as far as we read the manual and looked at the parts.

Everything OK?

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 10:54
"What are these nuts for? A train?”
“Who the f**k has designed this?”
“Them Yamasaki engines are so simple to work on.”

My mate will unlikely send his CV to Piaggio group. Anyway, here was the starting point last weekend.




The other half of the casing got new seals for the counter shaft, clutch rod and gear selector shaft. Then it was a matter of dropping in the gearbox. We finally opted for the previously assembled Gen1 gearbox and the Gen2 version will stay on the shelf. Now that I have a spare gearbox the current one will never sh*t itself.



We had put the conrods on the crank as per procedure although we estimated the final 70 degree turn by eye. The crank was dropped in and we dropped the gasket in its place before mating the case halves. The gasket is funny as the small triangular area between the cylinders does not have space for pins so the gasket runs continuously through the cylinder bottoms. Once the mating and tighteningis done one needs to cut the gasket and carve it with a sharp object on level with the engine case surface. I did this with a knife with the results seen in the picture. Later when you put the cylinders in place you put some Loctite 574 on the seam and then the cylinder base gasket.



Two out of four cutting points marked.




Before dropping the cylinders in place it was a matter of some heavy tightening. Crank clutch side 230 Nm, clutch 170 Nm, balance shaft clutch side 150 Nm and flywheel 130 Nm. The crank for example has Loctite 648 and a spring washer on top of the OTT torque setting. The designer has forgotten the security pin. Basically the flywheel was torqued down with a torque wrench. The rest was torqued to ~100 Nm and then we used a gun and observed the nut movement. A picture below to show how for example we torqued down the crank clutch side nut. The marker pen markings highlighted in the picture.

The crank locking tool was a standard M8 bolt, out of which we took the first 2 threads away to fit it to the locking slots. Unfortunately the threads were too short so we made 15 mm more to that one… by hand. Sweaty.




We made a decision between the clutch crowns and the one sent by Tash went in as it had less marks from the clutch plates. Springs were EBC +15% and from the TSS magic box we took the red longer spacers. Faster color.

The cylinders were a bit of pain in the ass to drop in, especially as I was holding the package up weakened by previous night’s North West 200 DVD and some red wine. You need to pull the pistons as low as you dare to get the piston pin in place but in they went.

To tighten the cylinders we had a Spezial Tool, which we used so that the torque wrench was in 90 degree angle to it.



Voilá




Then it was a matter to time the engine roughly. The last time I did this the rear camchain had snapped so I started from the front cylinder then. This time we started from the rear cylinder as per manual and did I fookin’ got it wrong the first time. Yes. Some thinking and reading and we got it. It is not hard. One just needs to concentrate (and read!).

We measured the valve clearances and three intake valves were tight. ~0,10 mm. I had taken the shims out from the old heads and we got the clearance to 2 x 0,20 mm and one 0,20- mm. Upper limit is 0,18 mm. That’ll do for me. We are on the safe side and I end up measuring the clearance way before 15 000 km is full with the engine.

All the above done it was time to figure out how to time the cams. We need to mount the timing disc to the crank somehow and my mate had another Spezial Tool in his garage. We just have M8 threads done to the bolt and that is it.

Flywheel bolt taken out and Spezial Tool in place.



Here it is after the weekend. The next thing we aim to do is to run in the engine by turning it by hand on the table. Also known as timing the cams of a V2 engine.



-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 12:41
Good work, well done. I bet you can't wait to hear it run,always a nice moment after a rebuild. I may take the flywheel weight down by 25% but retain it on the Gen 2 motor when I do the big Bore.
I am looking at some Kent cams but wondering if the longer duration will make that much difference compared to four one piece inlets.
The good thing about the Kent cams they are billet so stronger than forged or pressed type.
Did you tac weld the cams?


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 12:47
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Good work, well done. I bet you can't wait to hear it run,always a nice moment after a rebuild. I may take the flywheel weight down by 25% but retain it on the Gen 2 motor when I do the big Bore.
I am looking at some Kent cams but wondering if the longer duration will make that much difference compared to four one piece inlets.
The good thing about the Kent cams they are billet so stronger than forged or pressed type.
Did you tac weld the cams?
They will regrind your own cams
 
this is from 2013 when I enquired if you click on the blue part numbers it will take you to the kentcams site with the valve lift specs etc.
 

The cams prices are ,

 

The cost to regrind a set is GBP260.00 + vat  and would need the cams for 10 days.

The cost for a billet set is GBP790.00 + vat and delay would be 6 to 8 weeks from receipt of an order/deposit.

 

Regards

 

Tony Woodward.

 

http://www.Kentcams.com" rel="nofollow -  

 

Good morning,

Please can you let me know the price and availability of these cams ,are they on new blanks or regrinds on old cams

Part No.

Part Type

Description

Manufacturer

Make/Model

Engine Size

http://www.kentcams.com/product-details/822/Camshaft/Camshaft/APR01-Sports/" rel="nofollow -

http://www.kentcams.com/2/Camshaft/" rel="nofollow -

Sports 

http://www.kentcams.com/product-manufacturer-models-parts/model/64/vehicletype/2/manufacturer/Aprillia/m/RSV/%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20/product-manufacturer-models/manf/60/vehicletype/2/manufacturer/Aprillia/%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20" rel="nofollow -  

http://www.kentcams.com/product-manufacturer-models-parts/model/64/vehicletype/2/manufacturer/Aprillia/m/RSV/" rel="nofollow -  

1000cc 

http://www.kentcams.com/product-details/823/Camshaft/Camshaft/APR02-Sports/" rel="nofollow -

http://www.kentcams.com/2/Camshaft/" rel="nofollow -

Sports 

http://www.kentcams.com/product-manufacturer-models-parts/model/64/vehicletype/2/manufacturer/Aprillia/m/RSV/%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20/product-manufacturer-models/manf/60/vehicletype/2/manufacturer/Aprillia/%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20" rel="nofollow -  

http://www.kentcams.com/product-manufacturer-models-parts/model/64/vehicletype/2/manufacturer/Aprillia/m/RSV/" rel="nofollow -  

1000cc 

http://www.kentcams.com/product-details/824/Camshaft/Camshaft/APR03-Race/" rel="nofollow -

http://www.kentcams.com/2/Camshaft/" rel="nofollow -

Race 

http://www.kentcams.com/product-manufacturer-models-parts/model/64/vehicletype/2/manufacturer/Aprillia/m/RSV/%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20/product-manufacturer-models/manf/60/vehicletype/2/manufacturer/Aprillia/%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20" rel="nofollow -  

http://www.kentcams.com/product-manufacturer-models-parts/model/64/vehicletype/2/manufacturer/Aprillia/m/RSV/" rel="nofollow -  

1000cc 

 

 



-------------


www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 13:33
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Good work, well done. I bet you can't wait to hear it run,always a nice moment after a rebuild. I may take the flywheel weight down by 25% but retain it on the Gen 2 motor when I do the big Bore.
I am looking at some Kent cams but wondering if the longer duration will make that much difference compared to four one piece inlets.
The good thing about the Kent cams they are billet so stronger than forged or pressed type.
Did you tac weld the cams?
 
No welding on the cams as the cam profile and valve springs stay the same. Additionally, there is no plan to increase the rev limit.  They have held for 13 some years so I hope they will do fine in the future as well.


-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 14:14
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Good work, well done. I bet you can't wait to hear it run,always a nice moment after a rebuild. I may take the flywheel weight down by 25% but retain it on the Gen 2 motor when I do the big Bore.
I am looking at some Kent cams but wondering if the longer duration will make that much difference compared to four one piece inlets.
The good thing about the Kent cams they are billet so stronger than forged or pressed type.
Did you tac weld the cams?

 
No welding on the cams as the cam profile and valve springs stay the same. Additionally, there is no plan to increase the rev limit.  They have held for 13 some years so I hope they will do fine in the future as well.

Hi Red, I have seen a set of Kent cams, but I have to find if they are APR03 the stage three.
If they are and I can get them for a decent price I may have them. My problem was that the followers as Kent call them were 37 quid each and with 8 needed it would prove expensive.
But I found out VR8 is running them on his 1127 with oem followers or as I would say shim buckets and has no problems.
It would make it more powerbandy but as as it would be in the higher rev range it would be fine.
They are are the best part of 1k to buy new so may be worth considering billet cams.
Spoonvalley run them on their bikes. The only thing that worries me is the piston to valve clearances. The recommended valve timing is 110/110 recommend by Kent. VR8 couldn't really say too much concerning the piston to valve clearances as he's got an 1127 kit on his, but maybe worth a punt.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 13:27
A quick question to those more familiar with Rotax cam timing effects.
 
 
We got the rear cylinder timing to IN/EX to 111/111.

Ran out of space to manouvre. How does that sound for timing? (Goal was 110/114)

The day was much wasted as we got on the wrong track as the cam chain was not tight and messed up the measurement and we did silly things. Eventually we put a M16 bolt to squeeze the tensioner to keep the chain tight during the measurement and got to the result above. Live and learn.

Next time we do the front and hope to get near near 111/111 if that sounds OK.

Edit:

That is standard 2004 Gen2 heads in a 1060 BB.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 14:19
Hi,I would use s carbide bit in a dremmel and elongate the the cam wheels and get to your original goal, that's a good timing 110/114 good for hp, with the kit you should have plenty of torque


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 15:31
Question is that what does this do?

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 16:23
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Question is that what does this do?
.to optimise the timing to get the most out of your engine...Mille engines are notorious for having sloppy cam timing from the factory which is why some bikes seem to make mega power with simple mods and others don't .

Also don't forget to measure your clearance between piston and valve

-------------


www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 16:28
^
I was under the impression that around 110/110 the clearance is well on the safe side.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 16:39
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Question is that what does this do?

Hi, yes to achieve that timing, you will have to do that. You can get cam wheels from AF1 already slotted or do it yourself. I would go for that 110/114 or even 115 it would give you more bhp than torque.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 17:13
The ones I have are slotted.

In case I can get the front the same I think I will stick to this and see what I can get. Then, if needed, I can try to improve.

Back to piston valve clearance.

Hope I do not sound blunt. Your input is much appreciated.

Btw. Measured the TSS clutch stack lift to 0,7-0,8 mm.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 19:31
The slipper will be fine, mine only 8.87.
You are well in the tolerances, also you are going to enjoy it very much, it is probably the best mod and mine as quite a few.
About the timing 108/112, 106/109 or 110/ 114. I would persevere and try to get to wanted.
Wishing you great success and happy new year.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 20:12
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

The slipper will be fine, mine only 8.87.
You are well in the tolerances, also you are going to enjoy it very much, it is probably the best mod and mine as quite a few.
About the timing 108/112, 106/109 or 110/ 114. I would persevere and try to get to wanted.
Wishing you great success and happy new year.


Same to you.

About timing ( a giggly thing). I remember maybe Gabro and some Swedish dudes trying 110/110. Could be wrong. Also fishing out info from them and will get the actual crank degrees with 1 mm lift the next time.

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 07:49
110/110 is for Kent cams and is what Kent recommend. The duration especially on the APR 03 which is full race is very long as would be the overlap so explains their timing as them Swedes run them Kent cams also 1127 big bores. The Kent cams that were for sale were APR 02 so are very close in duration to my four inlets, and my inlets have more lift than the Kent exhaust. So undecided whether I will buy them. If I had pressed ones I would but they are billet so even stronger than my forged ones.
I have decided to go 1127 now if Spoonvalley will make another kit. They stopped production because a lack of interest. But Joakim said he will consider it. But there's going to added expense as I would have to run an Ignijet or a Motec also bigger injectors maybe four including showers, but I will probably not use the showers just bigger ones to replace the oem ones.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 09:24
Another thing you may want to consider, on my Yoshi motor where we also slotted the cam wheels, we packed the slots with a machined piece of metal especially if you end up with quite a gap, with a washer to cover the slot. Probably not necessary but it's just extra security.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2018 at 22:31
OK. Timing done. We remeasured the rear before we got on with the front. I'll summarize here the results with a question before going into more details with pictures. The rear dictated our goal with the front as we had adjusted the cams as advanced in the slots as we could and we were "lucky" to get the same in the front but with as retarded cam positions as possible in the slots. Tells you something about how those sprockets leave the factory.

REAR:
Intake opens BTDC: 15.5
Intake closes ABDC: 61.5

Exhaust opens BBDC: 56
Exhaust closes ATDC: 17


32.5 degrees overlap & 113/110 (rounded up from 109.5). Durations 257/253

FRONT:
Intake opens BTDC: 16
Intake closes ABDC: 62

Exhaust opens BBDC: 56.5
Exhaus closes ATDC: 15

Overlap 31 & 113/111 (rounded up from 110.75). Durations 258/ 252 (rounded up from 251.5)

The questions:

What do you reckon about the overlap figures and especially about the a bit silly intake center lobe. It is now full five degrees later than "stock" set up and three degrees later than the targeted 110. Less overlap for sure but what else is going to happen theoretically as the intake works further away from TDC?

-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: JMH
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 16:27
^
The above sums up the results. Funny duration times by the way but we measured three times each cam getting the result within 0.5 degrees and then the fourth time after tightening everything up with Loctite. We'll see. Now that I got the hang of it there is always the possibility to improve. For instance during valve clerance setting.

Some pics and a short story.

The general set up of the timing device. The degree wheel is tightened between two nuts and spacers so that you can move it with force. TDCs were checked. Front cylinder was spot on the mark and rear 0.5-1.0 degree off. So as previously stated by many builders those timing marks are spot on.



This indicator does not move with wind



The manual chain tightener on top of the original one. Hand tightened.



Markings on front cylinder exhaust



Rear marks



Rear exhaust marking. Let us see if it stays there.




As the TSS does not need the vacuum I took out the center piece of the new clutch diaphragm and the spacers as well as the nut was left out. In the pics you can see the center piece taken out and the old diaphragm.





There it is now. Ready to go into the frame, after which I have the pipes done. That should be quite simple when I have the Gen2 headers and a full Akra Gen1 2-2 system. This will take place mid/ end of February. I am taking a short pause with this.



-------------
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.


Posted By: dog78
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 16:39
Good work, looking forward to your review when it's running, which should be soon.It was nice to follow the build, well done



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