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Carbon Fibre fuel tanks

Printed From: rsvr.net Forums
Category: Falco
Forum Name: General & Technical
Forum Description: Everything and anything to do with the Fantastic Falco ... aprilia's best kept secret !
URL: http://www.rsvr.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17268
Printed Date: 26 Sep 2018 at 02:19
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Topic: Carbon Fibre fuel tanks
Posted By: Nooj
Subject: Carbon Fibre fuel tanks
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 17:52
Nothing decided yet, just chucking some ideas around... would anyone be interested in a carbon fibre Falco fuel tank?

Would be vaguely in the region of £1000 - £3000 depending on numbers and production costs (lot of things to find out first).

They would be as resilient to ethanol as our current tanks are. The lay-up would be top quality and it would be completely carbon, not just wrapped.

This doesn't mean it will happen, but if there's enough interest.... maybe.


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Replies:
Posted By: Slackey
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 19:20
Jesus Nooj...3k ??? I am all for special mods but you could buy a new bike for that and have change!

Saying that I have not got a Falco so what does my opinion matter lol

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Posted By: adzed
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 19:28
Good way to triple the value of a Falco though!

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Posted By: Jollygiant
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 20:25
I chucked around the same idea for the Mille/ Tuono and there were loads of yes's until I mentioned the price!

One day when I'm rich and can afford it I'll get the mould made and make one for mine and sod the cost!


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Posted By: Ape
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 06:10
I reckon the price will put people off dude, for around 3k they could pick up another falco/millie/tuono...A carbon tank would be a going of serial desire and drop dead gorgeous beauty though !!!

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Posted By: ckennedy
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 09:05
correct me if I'm wrong but arnt carbon tank illegal in the UK for road use? Heard the somewhere so if it's true it could only be sported on track bikes. 


Posted By: Spoonz
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 09:20
I think strictly speaking tanks are supposed to be type approved to be sold on a new bike but I don't think that applies to modding. It just has to be up to the job.

This is the actual law regarding tanks from the gov website.

All fuel tanks:
  • Shall be constructed and maintained so that the leakage of any liquid from the tank is adequately prevented.
     
  • Shall be constructed and maintained so that the leakage of vapour from the tank is adequately prevented.
  • If fitted to a vehicle first used on or after 1st July 1973:
    • Made only of metal;
    • Fixed in such a position and so maintained as to be reasonably secure from damage.
       
  • A two-wheeled motorcycle (with or without a side-car) first used on or after 1st February 1993 need not have a fuel tank made only of metal.



Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 09:50
to tell you the truth an italian guy had a tuono carbon cover made and he could have got it down to 250 euro's if there had been enough interest but he couldnt muster up customers so i doubt if a tank at this price will get many jumping on the bandwagon .
 
tuono tank cover was on af1 just trying to find a link and pic...found it ... he posted on here as well
 At the moment the price for a cover finished with gloss painting and decals provided by customers is about 300 euro, shipping in europe is about 30 euro...

To get a better quote I need to make an order of 10 tank cover, more cover we order lower is the price... I think it would be easy to get them for 250...



http://www.rsvr.net/carbon-fiber-gas-tank-cover_topic4975.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.rsvr.net/carbon-fiber-gas-tank-cover_topic4975.html
 
 
sebi moto used to make rsv carbon tanks
http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=SA011041C" rel="nofollow - http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=SA011041C
 
this guy was looking at $900 if he got 10 people interested and he didnt!!!!
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?162389-Carbon-tank-for-early-Mille-900!!!&highlight=carbon+tank" rel="nofollow - http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?162389-Carbon-tank-for-early-Mille-900!!!&highlight=carbon+tank
 
 


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Posted By: Jollygiant
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 10:35
These csrbon tanks Nooj and I are talking about at stronger then original ones.
Hold more and are lighter oh not to mention ethernol proof!

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Check out my pre-preg carbon fibre
www.jollyscarbon.co.uk
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Has done The Ring…..Slowly but I did it!!


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 10:42
Originally posted by Jollygiant Jollygiant wrote:

These csrbon tanks Nooj and I are talking about at stronger then original ones.
Hold more and are lighter oh not to mention ethernol proof!
i dont doubt it ..and dont get me wrong we'd all love a carbon tank but its big bucks!

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Posted By: Spoonz
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 12:11
Most of the better tanks I read up on seemed to use Kevlar on the inner layer of the tank. That makes it ethanol proof and stops the carbon from shattering into a million pieces on a hard impact. If anyone has seen Carbon in an impact on tv etc, it often explodes into pieces if you hit it hard enough.

I think the problem from a selling point of view is that most people want Carbon purely for looks as weight is less of an issue for the road user. If he can wrap and get the same look for £200, why would he pay £2k for something which looks the same to anyone passing by. For that reason I think Carbon tanks are a hard sell generally.
They do look nice though if done well.


Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2015 at 17:50
That's actually really nice Redratbike. No it's not a proper carbon tank but looks much better than wrap. Wonder if the chap still makes them? Pierpiero has not been here for sometime by the looks of it tho...


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Question everything.


Posted By: Tifa
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2015 at 18:44
only £3k?

I'll have six please Wink 


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Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2015 at 20:42
Heheh yes 3 big ones!

Thought the carbon tank cover was really nice though for 300euro's considering complexity of curves etc. I have sent a PM even tho I prob have more chance of seeing Elvis crashing a UFO into the Loch Ness Monster, than getting a reply now! Shame. I'm a carbon whore and would buy one tomorrow!


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Question everything.


Posted By: DrD
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2015 at 22:59
I'ld still prefer an alloy tank for the Gen1

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RSV 2003


Posted By: Jollygiant
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2015 at 23:47
Originally posted by Diablo Diablo wrote:


<Snip>
I'm a carbon whore <Snip>

Would you like to have a bet on that??? lol Wink


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Check out my pre-preg carbon fibre
www.jollyscarbon.co.uk
www.facebook.com/jollyscarbon
www.instagram.com/jollyscarbon

Has done The Ring…..Slowly but I did it!!


Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2015 at 00:44
Originally posted by Jollygiant Jollygiant wrote:

Originally posted by Diablo Diablo wrote:


<Snip>
I'm a carbon whore <Snip>

Would you like to have a bet on that??? lol Wink


 Thumbs Up


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Question everything.


Posted By: Ape
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2015 at 08:17
Carbon tanks do look sexy as hell...

1 question though is it only black you can get CF in ??

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RIDE IT LIKE YA STOLE IT BOSS !!


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2015 at 09:17
Originally posted by Ape Ape wrote:

Carbon tanks do look sexy as hell...

1 question though is it only black you can get CF in ??
no
 
http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/Category/Carbon-Fibre-Hybrid-and-Decorative-Fabrics.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/Category/Carbon-Fibre-Hybrid-and-Decorative-Fabrics.aspx


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Posted By: Ape
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2015 at 20:42
They look pretty cool.

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RIDE IT LIKE YA STOLE IT BOSS !!


Posted By: wayne'o'
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2015 at 22:29
Originally posted by adzed adzed wrote:

Good way to triple the value of a Falco though!


sh*tflap!!

http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Renatao_photo/media/funn7.gif.html" rel="nofollow">

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Posted By: adzed
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2015 at 07:56
Alright mate!

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Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2015 at 08:23
Originally posted by adzed adzed wrote:

Alright mate!
oops...lol

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Posted By: D-Rider
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 11:26
Well the carbon tank project has come to fruition - we're about half way through the initial batch of 8 (the minimum number that we needed to commit to the project to commission the mould and get it off the ground).
Once the initial build is done, I think Rich will be happy to take further orders from those on Ridersite that didn't get in with the first batch and also other forums too - so RSVR.net and AF1 etc.

I've got mine now and will be glad to wave goodbye to the curse of ethanol expansion - the main reason we got them made in the first place. Side effects are the inherent capacity increase, a bit of weight loss and the carbon bling-factor ... but the important thing is the ethanol resistance.

It'll be a while 'till I find time to fit mine as I want to refurb the fuel lines inside and outside the tank at the same time and I've not got the time at present .... the standard tank can go through another winter ....

Oh yes, the costs are nothing like what has been discussed on here and although they will have to go up a bit for future builds will be a pleasant surprise to those of you that thought they were going to be several grand. Mind you, it's not for me to state prices - that'll be for any who want the tanks to confirm with Rich.
I'll try to make sure that I let you know when the first batch of 8 are done ... and sorry I haven't posted on here for ages !

BTW if anyone wants to see any pics, some are on the Ridersite forum and Facebook pabe and also on the AP Facebook page (mainly unfinished tanks but they still look good)


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Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 12:23
i know nooj has his ..he told me on sunday when they dropped off Rob's falco.

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Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 13:04
Hi D-Rider, I think I chatted to Rich Briefly on Facebook yesterday about this. I definitely want one. I have been emailing Carbon manufacturers in Europe, the US and even Oz, no-one was interested in making Mille tanks unless I wanted 10 or so.



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Question everything.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 13:12
Originally posted by Diablo Diablo wrote:

Hi D-Rider, I think I chatted to Rich Briefly on Facebook yesterday about this. I definately want one. I have been emailing Carbon manufacturers in Europe, the US and even Oz, no-one was interested in making Mille tanks unless I wanted 10 or so.
I will get in touch with Rich.
he'll need a tank to make a mould from and a lot of money is right there in making a mould that can be used multiple times.
 
now i have a brand new 01-03 tank in a box ...just saying likeWink


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Posted By: Diablo
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 13:28
Yes all that mould making etc, the whole process is labour intensive and thats where the money goes I suppose, I mean paying for the hours spent making molds (quite rightly) and not just a final product. I appreciate the time spent behind the scenes and why it is expensive.


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Question everything.


Posted By: D-Rider
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 16:06
Yes - it's a long-term project - we started with the Falco tanks in the spring and it's only at the end of the year that we'll have them all produced.
Far better to do the job well than to rush - and Rich is a great bloke to have to do the work.
Make sure you understand the limitations of what can be achieved in the manufacturing process too - it's an entirely different process compared to making the OEM tanks. For example, hiding the join between top and bottom sections of the tank is not completely possible (unless you cover it in paint) - though Rich has done a pretty good job with that too.


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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 14:00
I haveonly just seen Nooj's thread...
Funny how from little or zero interest and it seems like this may not happen that for the past 6 months or so all I have been doing is making Aprilia fuel tanks due to them being too expensive.... lol...





With one more on the way this week too... Bringing the current total to 9 Falco tanks and 14 Aprilia RS250 tanks in the past 14 months.. 






Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 14:15
saw the one on ebay with the moulding flaw and was sorely tempted
 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152075143930?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152075143930?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 
I think you'd have a market for rsv mille tanks


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Posted By: Crownan
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 15:16
Amazing! Are you making Gen2 Rsv tanks too? Seeing as they all warp! Big smile

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2007 RSV-R


Posted By: 426hemi
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 15:18
If you make them for a 2000 rsv I'll be on it like a tramp on chips👍


Posted By: Spoonz
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 15:28
Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

If you make them for a 2000 rsv I'll be on it like a tramp on chips👍
 
You would buy Carbon toilet roll if someone made it LOL


Posted By: Mr Miller
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 15:30
Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

If you make them for a 2000 rsv I'll be on it like a tramp on chips👍

+1 .. but the tramp will have to fight me for the chips LOL


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Posted By: Coops
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 15:37
Stunning...I've asked him on facebook if he did Gen 1 rsv tanks,as I was after one for mine


Posted By: 426hemi
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 15:40
I bet you could just use the cloth before you touch cloth if you get what I mean💩, I just can't help it when it comes to carbon👍


Posted By: Coops
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 15:51
Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

I bet you could just use the cloth before you touch cloth if you get what I mean💩, I just can't help it when it comes to carbon👍


lol hemi, you might like mine once she's finished her make over


Posted By: 426hemi
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 16:02
Full carbon?


Posted By: NickyBoy1984
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 16:05
WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW
I WANT ONE I WANT ONE...!.!!!!!..!.!!!!..!.!.!!!.!.!.!!.!.!!!.!.!

NickyBoy

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Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 16:26
Originally posted by NickyBoy1984 NickyBoy1984 wrote:

WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW
I WANT ONE I WANT ONE...!.!!!!!..!.!!!!..!.!.!!!.!.!.!!.!.!!!.!.!

NickyBoy
you haven't got a falco!!!!Clown

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Posted By: Fugly
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 16:28
I took a look at his webpage and mailed him asking if he could do a Gen 2 with a couple of extra litres capacity, he replied that tooling would be £2500 and would need a perfect tank.
Can somebody more knowledgeable than me add a survey with names, model etc so we can get a list together and get people to commit financially?


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Full Arrows system, 1060 Big Bore, PC5 and Evo Airbox. Bring on the big grin!


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 16:46
Originally posted by Fugly Fugly wrote:

I took a look at his webpage and mailed him asking if he could do a Gen 2 with a couple of extra litres capacity, he replied that tooling would be £2500 and would need a perfect tank.
Can somebody more knowledgeable than me add a survey with names, model etc so we can get a list together and get people to commit financially?
when nooj and d-rider I think commissioned the falco tanks Nooj bought a brand new tank from af1 to have the mould taken from

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Posted By: Spoonz
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 16:58
Before we get carried away with polls etc, let me speak to Griff as technically it would be trading to put deals together which has to be ok'd by him.
 
I don't see it being an issue but it's his call.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 17:57
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

Originally posted by Fugly Fugly wrote:

I took a look at his webpage and mailed him asking if he could do a Gen 2 with a couple of extra litres capacity, he replied that tooling would be £2500 and would need a perfect tank.
Can somebody more knowledgeable than me add a survey with names, model etc so we can get a list together and get people to commit financially?
when nooj and d-rider I think commissioned the falco tanks Nooj bought a brand new tank from af1 to have the mould taken from
i may have a brand new 01-02 tank just sitting there doing nothing.....just saying

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Posted By: Spoonz
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 19:48
On the subject of trading the tanks through the forum Griff has requested the maker of the tanks to ring if he wishes to do so. I don't know that he does but just in case. He likes to chat to people first before sanctioning it as the site is so closely linked to his business.
 
Or people can talk to the Tank maker direct.
 
In the meantime discuss but please no making deals via the forum.


Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 19:50
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

Before we get carried away with polls etc, let me speak to Griff as technically it would be trading to put deals together which has to be ok'd by him.
 
I don't see it being an issue but it's his call.


That is a good idea... It is not fair to Griff to just go wading in... Although he would also know he can buy direct to sell through AP too... But best talk to Griff first. 


Posted By: Spoonz
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 19:56
Originally posted by morepower morepower wrote:



That is a good idea... It is not fair to Griff to just go wading in... Although he would also know he can buy direct to sell through AP too... But best talk to Griff first. 
 
Give Griff a ring bud please.


Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 20:08
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

Originally posted by morepower morepower wrote:



That is a good idea... It is not fair to Griff to just go wading in... Although he would also know he can buy direct to sell through AP too... But best talk to Griff first. 
 
Give Griff a ring bud please.

Will call him tomorrow... About time I gave him some stick anyways..... lol



Posted By: Spoonz
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 20:15
Cool, give him loads of stick, he loves it. He's on the road at the moment but should be back tomorrow.
 
Having just spent 45 mins wrestling my tank bolts back in after my tank has swelled I would have gladly launched said tank into outer space and put on a non swelling Carbon tank. Luckily I won the battle of wills, for now !


Posted By: NickyBoy1984
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 21:01
Ahh the fun of them tank bolts lol...

NickyBoy

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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 20:09
Called Griff a couple of times but he was busy.... Will call him tomorrow...


Posted By: Spoonz
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 20:27
He said Lewis is authorised to give to talk with u about it if he is not there. He is doing loads of runs to the dyno at the moment.


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 20:58
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:


He said Lewis is authorised to give to talk with u about it if he is not there. He is doing loads of runs to the dyno at the moment.
playing with his v4 tuono??.

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Posted By: Spoonz
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 21:15
Yarp, Lewis is doin all the day to day admin and running the shop stuff in his absence


Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 21:17
Ah.. Griff was making rearsets... lol.. He is the labourer now.... 


Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 21:44
Will just leave this here.....

lol..
One from today..

straight out of the mould with the resin flash still....


Posted By: NickyBoy1984
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 00:00
PLEEEEEEASE make a Gen1 face lift tank lol

NickyBoy

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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 09:39
Just spoke to Griff.. Just have to wait for him to talk to a guy he promised could do carbon part on the forum. I am not going to tread on anyones toes on the forum, its simply not fair. Not to say I will not do any RSV tanks it's just not through the forum unless I have Griff say yes, if the other guy steps up and wants to do them, great. 

So for now.. I am off to remake the mould for this.... lol.. 






Posted By: NickyBoy1984
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 10:21
Wowza, that's nice

NickyBoy

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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 10:59
If anyone needs to contact me either talk to Nooj or D-Rider. Alternatively I am no facebook and you can get me through P3 Composites facbook page too. 

If I have enough demand for any fuel tank it would be stupid to not look at it seriously. Its just working out if it will be viable and not stupidly expensive to make. I am guessing it would be about the same as the Falco tanks so I have a good idea of costs to make it..



Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 11:23
Originally posted by morepower morepower wrote:

If anyone needs to contact me either talk to Nooj or D-Rider. Alternatively I am no facebook and you can get me through P3 Composites facbook page too. 

If I have enough demand for any fuel tank it would be stupid to not look at it seriously. Its just working out if it will be viable and not stupidly expensive to make. I am guessing it would be about the same as the Falco tanks so I have a good idea of costs to make it..

and we are as silly as the falco riders to want to buy one tooLOL

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Posted By: legend88
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 12:19
They do look the business and not wanting to put a spanner in the works (I spent the other night slotting the rear mounting bracket for my tank) but given that a fuel tank carries - well fuel - are there any certification/insurance requirments/implications here?



Posted By: Fugly
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 12:44
Originally posted by legend88 legend88 wrote:

They do look the business and not wanting to put a spanner in the works (I spent the other night slotting the rear mounting bracket for my tank) but given that a fuel tank carries - well fuel - are there any certification/insurance requirments/implications here?


As far as I am aware the answer is "no"  but if there is an option that doesn't suffer from ethanol swelling then I am interested, if that option is carbon then I am in


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Full Arrows system, 1060 Big Bore, PC5 and Evo Airbox. Bring on the big grin!


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 13:24
Originally posted by legend88 legend88 wrote:

They do look the business and not wanting to put a spanner in the works (I spent the other night slotting the rear mounting bracket for my tank) but given that a fuel tank carries - well fuel - are there any certification/insurance requirments/implications here?

 
I think you'll find these are fit at your risk type of thing ...


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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 13:41
Fugly is right there are no requirements for a fuel tank. So it is up to the manufacturer to make sure they are fit for use. So if someone made a tank which is not sealed for ethanol it can still be sold. If the tank is plastic and swells it can still be sold. It is up to the customer to decide if the part they buy is suitable based on what information they get from the manufacturer. Tanks did at one point have to be made from steel and bikes like the original KDX Enduro bikes came with steel tanks for the UK but other countries had plastic. 

I do take photos of the manufacturing process of every tank I make so both the customer can see his tank being made and that I do all I promise with regards sealing them and doing what I set out to do..

Regarding fitment..The Falco seems an odd one in some regards which D-Rider can confirm too. They have a broad tolerance on the fit of them so when I made the first one D-Rider checked it for fit and it did but it was possibly up at one end of the limit on the OEM brackets slots. As the mould is made directly from a brand new tank this seems odd. So we fitted the brand new tank which Nooj purchased from AF1. It fitted exactly the same as the carbon one.. (It should as it was made to copy that exact brand new tank). So it seems some suffer swelling more than others but this could simply be the original one was made at the upper limits of the tolerances for the actual part from Aprilia.

The carbon ones will not swell or expand in the heat as the material has very little expansion and is very stable. Strength? I can and have stood on the tanks which is not something you would do to an OEM tank..

It is up to the person making the parts to decide if it is suitable.  


Tank base now covered in sealer so you cannot now see the pattern of the weave.


I think a fuel tank has to have every major step covered with photos on every tank made. It just gives the person having some reassurance and gives them some ownership and they know how much work is involved with their own tank... 





Posted By: jond58
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 20:49
God someone tell me there's one for the gen1 coming soon!! I need the carbon !!!!

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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 22:17
Originally posted by jond58 jond58 wrote:

God someone tell me there's one for the gen1 coming soon!! I need the carbon !!!!


Regardless of doing stuff on or off the forum. I simply need to cover costs of moulds and at least break even on the first batch.....

I dont cut corners I make them as well and as strong as possible.. So they would not be cheap though..



Posted By: jond58
Date Posted: 12 May 2016 at 22:53
A carbon tank is never gonna be cheap, I appreciate that!! It seems strong enough unless there is some 'Dynamo' magician tricks going on?!?

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Posted By: nitroargi
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 05:16
Carbon tank for Gen1 Mille???? Yes please.... Tongue


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 06:02
Trouble is there are 2 different shapes for the gen1



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Posted By: Slackey
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 06:51
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

Trouble is there are 2 different shapes for the gen1



Surely the later shape would be the better model to manufacture as they are the ones with the ethanol issue.

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Posted By: nitroargi
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 06:53
TRue....

I am talking about the original 20lt tank




Posted By: bigchris
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 07:09
Gen 2 please to complete my carbon sl*g!!ClapWink


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 07:43
Originally posted by Slackey Slackey wrote:

Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

Trouble is there are 2 different shapes for the gen1



Surely the later shape would be the better model to manufacture as they are the ones with the ethanol issue.
so the early guys don't get one ..on yer bike Wink

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Posted By: Fugly
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 08:58
Rather than all the Gen 1 guys fighting over which version is best lets go straight to a 20L Gen 2 LOL

PLEEEEEEEEEEASE


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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 09:13
I know there was a steel tank and then a plastic one... Been told there were some bodywork changes too where the tank meets the plastics on for the seat. Although the steel one would be easier to copy and bond the base to the shell as the steel one has flat seams that were welded. 

Its sort of a numbers game with some bikes though... How many will sell is the first one? How many different versions are there and how many will work on multiple versions? If there are multiple versions where one tank will fit which one will look the best on the most bikes? If there is a toss up between a couple of them then the last decision is which is the easiest to produce. That really is the last one on the list. Seems I never back down from a challenge.. lol..

The RS250 Aprilia is like that. The MK2 is the bike most people want. Both tanks will work on each bike. BUT fit a MK2 onto a MK1 and there is a gap under the back of the tank you can slide a pizza box through. Fit the Mk1 on a MK2 the gap barely a shadow line. On both bikes there is about a 10mm gap so one way it is about 20mm and looks awful the other way it looks snug and very neat. I have had some ask for a MK2 tank simply because it has to be a MK2 for them. I have a brand new MK2 tank in the garage but it seems more people are happier with a MK1 tank on their MK2 now they have seen them. I have done 14 of the RS250 tanks now so quite a few have been seen on forums and facebook etc. 

So its sort of working out which tank has the most potential to sell.. 


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 09:19

there is a steel and a plastic one in the same shape 98-00 then just a plastic one 01-03

 
then of course the gen2 plastic tank 04-09


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Posted By: Jollygiant
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 13:23
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

there is a steel and a plastic one in the same shape 98-00 then just a plastic one 01-03

 
And it's the plastic one that deforms with ethanol....


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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 14:16
Yes but if the steel one works with several bikes then it would be easier to produce and make a mould from. If you see what I mean. A plastic tank has to be filled with something solid to allow a possible pre-preg tooling material to work and the vacuum not crush the tank. The alternative is a single use wet lay mould to then make a master in carbon and then make a pre-preg mould from that master. This means two moulds have to be made to start making parts. As some of you know this was what I ended up doing with the Falco tanks after the original £2500 mould cracked up and had to be replaced after only 3 parts were made. 

Now you sort of see when I had been asked before via Facebook I have not simply jumped at the chance.  It is a lot of work to get a perfect tank or expensive to get a brand new one. Then have to spend a few grand to get a mould made before I even make a single part... 


Posted By: legend88
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 14:46
Just to clarify, and you probably know this already, but when everyone is talking about plastic tanks they are actually referring to a resin construction. Do the same mould limitations apply re vacuum crushing?



Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 15:22
Originally posted by morepower morepower wrote:

. As some of you know this was what I ended up doing with the Falco tanks after the original £2500 mould cracked up and had to be replaced after only 3 parts were made. 

.
that I didn't know ...have you spoken to Griff ? I just spoke to him at the shop so he is there

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Posted By: nitroargi
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 16:21
i have a steel tank from a 1999 model that I am not using...just saying


Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 22:35
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

Originally posted by morepower morepower wrote:

. As some of you know this was what I ended up doing with the Falco tanks after the original £2500 mould cracked up and had to be replaced after only 3 parts were made. 

.
that I didn't know ...have you spoken to Griff ? I just spoke to him at the shop so he is there

Yep.... There is a guy who is sorting out some carbon stuff. CKENNEDY I think it is ... He has said he has agreed he can sell carbon exclusively through the forum so as he made that promise ages ago it is up to him to say yes or no if they are actually going to sell stuff.. So as far as the forum goes it is not up to me and I am not going to set up any sales here.. I do this for a living and have for a while now so you know where I am anyway... 

A am up for making almost any fuel tank as it seems I have spent 80% of my time doing fuel tanks with the other 20% being either high performance car parts, GT race car stuff, Aircraft, Diving or EX GP bike parts. 

So the ball as far as the forum is concerned is in Griff's hands and he needs to talk to the other guy. 


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 22:40
The other guy as far as I know isnt doing tanks

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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 23:01
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

Originally posted by morepower morepower wrote:

. As some of you know this was what I ended up doing with the Falco tanks after the original £2500 mould cracked up and had to be replaced after only 3 parts were made. 

.
that I didn't know ...have you spoken to Griff ? I just spoke to him at the shop so he is there


Yep. It was a bit of a pain.. The mould was made using resin and fibreglass in the traditional way using what I was told was a special hybrid resin that works better than any of the resins available off the shelf. Seems it is really not as good for pre-pregs as he claimed so I had to make a tank, lacquer it very lightly to remove the marks where the cracks were then put it back into the damaged mould and remake the mould section by section using the flanges of the original mould to create the new flanges too..

Here is the tank in the original mould side sections with no top. The top was the first section I remade. You can see the sides are a cream colour from the resins he used and a black gel coat on the smooth flange faces. 



Here the material is being laid up and you can see it is black. This material is actually a specially developed pre-preg carbon fibre use to make aerospace moulds. It is not a cheap material but it will last up to 1000 parts.

 

Here is a side being done with the top section left in place. I had to remove one section at a time when I remade it and had to leave the new sections on the part right up until the new mould was finished. 



Here is what it looked like when the section had cured after 18 hours in the oven. Just making this replacement mould meant the old mould had to be in the oven 5 times totalling 90 hours in the oven with each hot/cold cycle possibly risking more and more damage to both the original mould and the carbon tank as the glassfibre expands more than the carbon and contracts tighter and tighter round the part as the bolts will keep pulling the glassfibre mould down onto the part. 



Then this was the last section to remake.


Here is the weight of the original mould. The finished shell from this mould is about 1 KG and about 1.5mm thick with the mould over 15Kg and over 12mm thick. Hard to imagine the thin carbon can crack a mould about 10 times thicker than the shell. 


Here are the cracks.. The mould had dozens of them




The new full carbon mould..

Here is the first finished tank from that new carbon mould. 

Now I do not have to worry about cracking the mould and before I had to remove the tank while the mould was still at its highest temperature and get it out before it cooled enough to lock the mould round it. Now it can go up to 140 degrees C and down to 0 degrees C and not cause any problems. But the material is very particular in how it is laid up and how it has to be cured with several staged temperature changes with the temperature climbing at a very specific rate on each stage. 



Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 13 May 2016 at 23:03
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

The other guy as far as I know isnt doing tanks


Nope but it is not my forum and not my call to piss anyone off.. 


Posted By: NickyBoy1984
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 01:35
MP - Fascinating to read this stuff dude, nice one....!!

NickyBoy

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Posted By: Slackey
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 07:52
I would love to see this process first hand from start to finish.

Carbon tank is now very high on my wish list!

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Posted By: NickyBoy1984
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 11:04
Originally posted by Slackey Slackey wrote:

I would love to see this process first hand from start to finish.

Carbon tank is now very high on my wish list!


+1

NickyBoy

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Posted By: simonb
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 13:33
If the cost of the tanks is too much what are the chances of doing a tank cover for the bling factor?


Posted By: simonb
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 13:44
Like this


Posted By: simonb
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 13:46


Posted By: Jollygiant
Date Posted: 14 May 2016 at 14:56
To get mould for the cover would coast about £1800-2000 and would end up being either to lose or too tight and the tank will expand and contract and the carbon wouldn't.

If you want to spend time in the company of Morepower you really do need you head testing, these foreigners are bloody weird you know!!


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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 14:24
Making a cover is still expensive as it's about 2/3 the material to make a tank and still about half of the time too. The cover will be thin and need to flex to go over the widest point. Not sure a cover would even go over the tank and fit nicely. Not pre-preg anyway.


Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 14:26
Originally posted by Jollygiant Jollygiant wrote:

To get mould for the cover would coast about £1800-2000 and would end up being either to lose or too tight and the tank will expand and contract and the carbon wouldn't.

If you want to spend time in the company of Morepower you really do need you head testing, these foreigners are bloody weird you know!!



True.... And true.. Think a couple of days in my workshop would drive anyone nuts!


Posted By: redratbike
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 15:31
so could you skin a tank in carbon ?

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Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 18 May 2016 at 01:56
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:


so could you skin a tank in carbon ?


Plastic tanks expand and contract a lot... Plastic self releases from the resin too. So it would simply pull away from the tank. Steel tanks would work though.


Posted By: morepower
Date Posted: 24 May 2016 at 09:22
Originally posted by simonb simonb wrote:


I had a look at the original post on this cover. Two things. One is the cover has to have cuts on the sides to allow it to be pulled over the tank so this would also mean it is a thin cover to allow you to pull ut open and slide it over the tank. The second problem is if you make this cover from a new or perfect tank it will not fit correctly over one which has expanded or if you use a swollen tank then it would be a loose fit over a smaller tank. 

Mine are full fuel tanks to both get rid of the problem of refitting an expanded tank as well as giving the Falco a larger fuel capacity too. The carbon look is not as important as functionality it seems with the Falco. 


Posted By: Hudson
Date Posted: 24 May 2016 at 09:36
I like the look over the carbon wrap. I wonder if he does it for a mile.



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