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Mille wont start :(

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oscarb2b View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Sep 2013 at 23:22
Another starting problem but after searching couldn't find anything on here that might be related....

The bike unfortunately went for a ride without me on it and the trip sensor did its thing. I left the bike stood upright (not on trickle but have since and it says battery is 'full') and after a week or so went to try and start it. Ignition comes on with lights etc. When you thumb the starter theres just an electrical buzz, no clicking or anything just a loud buzz. Starter motor doesn't turn or try to.

The wonderful Datatool alarm has been playing up (who would have thought it) but no more than usual. You know with it going off at random and having general hissy fits. So im not sure whether that may affect it. It usually responds to the alarm fob but now doesnt?

Has anyone got an ideas of where i should start looking? 

Not sure whether its a battery, alarm or something to do with the spill which was mostly cosmetic aside from a clip on and indicator 

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2013 at 23:52
Have you checked the tilt sensor....under rear cowl give it a shake...it may be stuck

Have you shorted across the solenoid terminals to see if it turns over..


Are you sure the battery is ok...holding a full charge
.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2013 at 08:48
No i haven't given the tilt sensor a shake but will do. 

I cant guarantee the battery is ok as it was left of charge for about 10 days. It was juts strange that all the ignition came on but the alarm now sounds like a strangled piglett and doesnt respond when you press the key fob. 

Ill check the solenoids later too. Just nervous about trying to crank it if the battery isn't up to the job and opening up other sprag related issues! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scoobmonkee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2013 at 09:32
To rule out the battery try using some jump leads off a car battery.
Dont start the car though. That will give your battery a boost in power to test it the batttery has enough power
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2013 at 09:52
The sideways ride could of finished the battery, shaking all the crap about. As said, boost it from car, see what happens. Like u know, dont try and start the rotax without a good battery, u will bugger up the sprag.

Other things to listen for at key on before start, fuel pump prime, air solenoid creaking...moving. Also measure v at battery, anything below 12.5 would have a question mark to it....equally, keep measuring whilst pressing the start button....if drops below too far, its not holding up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2013 at 12:21
Ok thanks i wil give that a go. 

Only trouble with listening out for the fuel pump etc is that as soon as i put the key in the ignition and turn, the alarm goes off. I dont seem to have any control over what it does as the key fob doesn't worl. 

Does this mean that the bike has been immobilised?  

Ill rule out the battery this afternoon and go from there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2013 at 13:52
Right, I connected the bike to my car and when thumbing the starter the starter motor turned. I didn't go all the way just to be safe but at least I know the battery is dead. After I turned it a second time the battery couldn't cope and seemed to give up. There was a little bit if smoke which came from somewhere near he battery so wondering what tha was?

Some good news is that I've started to remove the lovely Datatool alarm by exposing the wires in the loom and getting ready to connect anything back up. Seemed to be just a purple/black wire which needs to be reconnected. (Aside From the indicator plug) All others are just wrapped around the exposed wires so will just snip off and tape up again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slackey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2013 at 14:19
I had some smoke on my Mille the other day when it struggled to start. I too the starter motor off and stripped it down, gave it a good clean, re-insulated the positive pin and put it back together. I also added a new earth lead and put direct from the battery to the starter motor securing bolt. As of yet it seems spot on.

Mine was acting like the battery was goosed but I knew it wasn't so I went for a dodgy earth, which will give similar symptoms. Fitting the new earth seems to have fixed it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrummyMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2013 at 14:29
The smoke from near the battery is probably the starter solenoid. They do this if you repeatedly try and start a bike that is not having it. Specifically, it is the plastic insulation around the power contacts on the solenoid, ie - NOT the smaller/thinner switch contacts. It is worth checking that their is not a loose connection on the power side.

My alarm cuts 3 circuits:
1) Starter solenoid switch side
2) Fuel pump relay switch side
3) Engine stop relay switch side

It also taps into:
1) Power + and -
2) Indicators left and right
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2013 at 18:53
So update from where we left off.... 

Fitted new battery and starter motor works as it should, engine turning over nicely. 

Having an issue with the fuel pump now and after turning the igniton on, the fuel pump primes and then the relay trips closely by the EFI light coming up on the dash. Power is going to the pump fine and have checked fuses etc. 

What do we think? 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2013 at 15:05
As the fuel pump relay is clicking when the ignition is turned on, then clicking again shortly afterwards, does this mean that it could be the relay thats faulty?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrummyMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2013 at 15:27
It could be the relay or possibly a relay in the alarm if its still connected. Have you tried isolating the fuel pump relay from the alarm?

Most alarms cut splice into the fuel pump relay circuit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2013 at 16:59
I removed the alarm as i thought it was a good time to whislt the battery was out and i had the loom on show.
 
There was a two pin plug (behind the ECU) which the alarm plugged into. It was part of the alarm removal process. I assumed it was for the indicators or something so thought no more of it. After checking on a diagram it appears to be an Aprilia Alarm plug.
 
We couldnt get the fuel pump to prime at all until we bridged the two points of that particualr plug together. When that plug is bridged,  the fuel pump primes on ignition, then cuts out and throws the EFI light on the dash.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2013 at 22:48
Just an FYI, I removed the Datatool system 3 alarm and in doing so snipped the wires leading from the alarm at the point where they wrapped around the alarm. Then taped them back up.

The only wire that was cut completely was the purple/black wire of which I joined up properly.

Is there something that I'm missing on the alarm circuit that might not be right and therefore not letting the fuel pump run after it's primed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2013 at 17:07
So decided to start eliminating some possbilities. Ordered some new relays which didnt make a difference. Found that the ambient air sensor wasnt in true so when wiggled back in that tempoarily got rid of the EFI light on the dash. Still no fuel going into engine though Cry
 
I put it in diagnostic mode and it said Fault Code 1 of which I understand is the Kill Switch? The kill switch was in the on position and the engine turns over nicely. I get the No Start display if trying to start for more then four seconds.
 
When the bike finishes its startup cycle and the fuel pump primes, it makes a loud click from the relay (light goes out simutainiously on the Power Commander). What do you guys think this may mean?
 
Any ideas greatly appreciated, cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2013 at 20:28
I'm no expert but 1st thing I'd do is disconnect the PC and try it again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrummyMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2013 at 23:22
This is a gen 2 bike right?

The fuel pump relay is almost certainly controlled by the ECU. I assume the ECU cuts fuel pressure if it doesn't "catch" a timing signal from the crankshaft and camshaft position sensors. I have a habit of over complicating things, but it could be a sensor problem. Or an ECU problem if the sensors are fine. I have a spare camshaft position sensor that is bolts into the front head cover on the gen 2 bikes. You can borrow it if you want to eliminate that at least.

BUT, do check what IanG said first.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrummyMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2013 at 23:24
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

I'm no expert but 1st thing I'd do is disconnect the PC and try it again.


Thats your 999th post! Celebration time Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2013 at 08:42
Ok thanks guys I'll try and plug it in to see what's going.

Max- thanks for the offer and it's a Gen1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrummyMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2013 at 12:14
Well I re-thought what I said. The dash would/should display code 11 or 12 if the ECU detected either of the position sensors as being faulty. So thats NOT it. And your fault code of 1, just to check, it doesn't say TPS 1 does it?

Just to recap that this is currently your situation:
Turn bike on, fuel pump whirrs for a couple of seconds then stops. Push starter button and bike turns over fine, but does not fire. Exhausts smell of fuel? Spark plugs fire ok?

If that is the situation, I would try unplugging the power commander from inline with the injectors and if that is not it try new spark plugs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2013 at 14:34
Originally posted by BrummyMax BrummyMax wrote:

Thats your 999th post! Celebration time Thumbs Up


Not really LOL

If I'd transferrred over my original AP forum post count I was neck and neck with Nicky on about 3000+ when we merged with here.
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You were short changed Ian. Still, celebrate anyway!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2013 at 16:47
Ok then,I may risk a beer later  Wink

Although not copying over my previous count was my choice anyway.
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TBH mate, if my thoughts were posts, I'd still be under 3000. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2013 at 20:34
Originally posted by BrummyMax BrummyMax wrote:

Well I re-thought what I said. The dash would/should display code 11 or 12 if the ECU detected either of the position sensors as being faulty. So thats NOT it. And your fault code of 1, just to check, it doesn't say TPS 1 does it?

Just to recap that this is currently your situation:
Turn bike on, fuel pump whirrs for a couple of seconds then stops. Push starter button and bike turns over fine, but does not fire. Exhausts smell of fuel? Spark plugs fire ok?

If that is the situation, I would try unplugging the power commander from inline with the injectors and if that is not it try new spark plugs.


Ok Max thanks, there's no other message on th dash other than 1 when plugged into diag mode.

Yea so after the ignition comes on, fuel pump primes (and you can smell fuel Mildly after about 5 secs) then about 2 seconds after the fuel pump finishes, you hear the relay click and the dash goes from flashing 'cold, to flashing EFI. Engine turns over nicely and you can hear the compression.

I'll try the power commander but can't help think it may be something to do with the alarm that I removed? All wires were reinsulated and the black/purple wire was reconnected. We couldn't get the fuel pump to prime at all until we bridged the alarm plug. I'm assuming that the fiuel pump should prime without that connector bridged as it's supposed to be left unplugged unless an alarm is on the bike. I'm thinking that this is either a sign that something else down the line isn't right or that could have something to do with it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrummyMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2013 at 22:12
You should not be able to smell fuel until after you have tried to start the bike. Try removing the power commander. Have you tested spark?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2013 at 07:24
The fuel smell stops after the pump has primed. I'm guessing that's because the pump is tripping .

I'll check spark when I get a chance this week. I'm a little nervous about removing the power commnander incase I screw anything up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2013 at 22:09
Spending the next few days trying to get abit further and narrow the issues down.

Here's a random wire that I found loose on the ecu, should this be out?


The fuel pump won't prime unless the alarm plug is bridged



Thoughts welcomed!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2013 at 22:46
The alarm connector is meant to have a bridge to close the circuit. The alarm fitter would have removed the original to fit the alarm.

You said the efi cleared when you wiggled the air sensor, that's maybe a clue. Take it out and measure it against spec and throughly clean the connectors and see if that changes anything.

The wire on the ecu should be disconnected for non power restricted countries and 0, 1 or -1 are not fault codes just throttle position readings.  Leave the diag connected whilst you crank also to see if any new codes flash up briefly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2013 at 22:53
Ok cool thanks. I'll clean the sensor plug and try and start in diag mode again.

You right in when I reconnected the air sensor the EFI light went out, but the bike still wouldn't start, when holding down the starter for more than 4 seconds it came up with 'No Start' on the dash.

Does this point me to anything imparticular or is it just telling me something I already know?!
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