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Mille Recommission Thread

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aaressveeguy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 17:09
yeah, saw the front head is leaking some oil. The 2nd could be leaking as well, but with the tank currently not taken off not getting a clear view. The oil tank hoses or the tank itself could be losing some as well.
Other than the valve cover, what other places can leak oil? During the last oil change I used fresh seals for oil filter.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 17:11
another question- would 10W be too hard for the showa forks with a 9.5 spring?
I have already got a litre of Motul factory line but looking at posts here and other forums 5W is preferred?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 12:56
ok, so going to disassemble the forks now. The race tech fork bible link is useful, but I was wondering if the process could be much quicker? Instead of trying to break the locknut free on top of the fork and set free the compression damping adjuster/cartridge and later undoping the bottom nut and removing the rebound assembly, can we simply not screw the bottom locknut( which is located at the base of the fork) out and set the internals free? I think this nut is what keeps the innards attached to the stanchion/fork, so if it's undone and then we remove the top nu, then the entire innards would simply slide out and then I won't have the need to compress the spring, use special waswher tool to undo the top compression adjuster locknut etc? 
Is it that if the bottom nut is set free then the top compression adjuster locknut would just keep on rotating?
Sorry have no pics as posting from work, will post some from home to better explain what I mean. But anyone who has taken the fork innards apart would know what I mean?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 13:12
I've never done it that way so can't comment.I like the the theory though,worth a try anyway.

You should definitely slacken that bolt before disassembly anyway as they are prone to spinning the cartridge if not under spring pressure.

Another potential source of oil leakage one the later gen1 which is often overlooked is the airboot itself if it collects enough oil mist.
Due to the vertical split design on the later boot the joint itself can weep oil residue over the cam covers and mistakenly lead people to assume the cam cover gasket it leaking ( although quite often it is )
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 02:34
Yeah, so what I was thinking did work. Unscrewed the bottom nut out and it took total 5 minutes to lay the fork innards down in order. 
But got stuck after this. I just cannot, for the life of me, remove the valves. I am not 100% sure how the compression valve has to be removed(think it's on the base of the fork where the bottom nut screws in?)
ON the CBR when I did the rebuild, the valve had a ring clip stopping it sliding out of the cartridge. I could easily push it in slightly inside the cartridge and remove the clip.
But for the mille, I think I can see the clip but cannot push the valve inside even slightly. In a moment of madness, thinking it is stuck I gave it a light tap with my wrench extension which has resulted in this.





Think there's a small chance oil might leak, although there'd be a new copper washer when the screw goes in which hopefully does the job :( 
This is 2nd setback in the recommission project- first was when one of the lower clamp bolts was stuck inside the triple and would just not budge and god sheared off. I'd have to now try to either drill it out or weld a nut on it and....if the thread are damaged on the triple I might just go for a used one off ebay or get it retapped-not sure yet


I have 3 questions now-
1)Does that valve base look too bad or it should be ok? Don't think I'd get cartridge on sale anywhere. so it'd have to be a pair of new forks if not ok.
2)Does the Kteck SSK piston kit give you new valve bases or just shims/pistons to stack over the existing/stock valve base? If if the former then 1) above becomes redundant.
3)How the hell does one remove the valves from the cartridge? Haynes doesn't say anything. 

On the other things which need doing, I have amassed almost everything now. Just need the johnwalker cables and the have to get the later gen1 collector I bought off ebay modded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 06:13
no pics unfortunately but detailed description


Have you checked out google videos “Rsv Showa fork rebuild”


www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 10:10
There aren't many videos about of a revalve job. I have seen whatever there is. From the link you provided, it seems exactly like the showa on my cbr and basically what I was doing with the mille fork last night.
In my case, I have not been able to push the compression(bottom) valve in to access the clip at all. AS I said I thought it's stuck and did what I did leading to what you see in the pics. May be I should heat that end and see what happens.

Anyone knows if the SSK valves come as full valves or  just the shim stack? 

From the link you provided red-

"Push this valve up in the body of the rod about 1/2 inch, or just enough to reveal the c-clip recessed into the rod body....

Remove that c-clip, and then push the valve out by collapsing the damper rod, forcing it out... Once the valve is out of the rod body, remove the nut from the other end of the damper rod
"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 12:48
Correct idea on the comp valve just wrong method.   Screw the bolt back in and tap that Wink

As long as the thread is undamaged you can reface the face of the valve body with a mirror and a sheet of fine wet and dry.

The valve will slide up the tube allowing you to remove the wire clip,then just use the piston rod to eject the valving.

I would think a cartridge would be a complete unit,just valving not sure.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 13:07
@IanG, thanks. Yes after my moment of madness sanity prevailed immediately and I did try screwing the bolt back on and tapping it, but no joy. I think it's stuck, so may be a bit of heat should help. Or should I just be a little more forceful with my taps. I just wanted a confirmation that what I was doing is correct and there is no other mechanism(other than the wire clip) holding the valve in.

I do notice that the bolt can only be finger tightened halfway up the valve. I do not see anyway I could have damaged the threads inside the valve other than that slight surface damage. May be I'd try putting it all back in and trying to reassemble minus the oil to see if the screw goes all the way in and takes the requisite torque. Donot want to find out later when everything is ready to go back in.


Btw, did you revalve using Ktech? Do their kits have full valve plus shim stack) or do we have to reuse the stock valve? The pictures on their product pages do show what I think is a full valve with shims, but may be I should call one of their distributors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 13:48
I just re stacked the OE valves so can't comment on what Ktec supply,perhaps give them a call? 

I can't remember offhand how far the clamp bolt goes in the valve body although I doubt it would be all the way in.

There is nothing stopping the valve body sliding,only gunge and misuse.  Unless the tubing has been distorted out of round and is gripping extra tight. There is an O ring fitted to the valve body I think,that's all.

Unless you're contemplating racing my thoughts are a Ktek cartridge is overkill,although some may well disagree.

All these specialists do is guess what might be right for your weight and hope it works going on past experience.  Also most concentrate of race bikes which is definitely NOT what you need on our potholed roads.

My goto place for fast road suspension is Maxton,as they specialise in fast ROAD racing and clubman short circuits.

If I was going to take my dabbling any further it would be Maxton's Big Piston internals kit which is a complete assembly and allows all adjustment from the top of the leg. And going from peoples experience although a big improvement,especially from the adjustability point of view it's "Not a night and day difference" to quote one customer.

That's just me though,many with more disposable income will be seduced by the urge to go large with aftermarket kit so good luck to them.

I only started on this road due to curiosity and meanness,not much point in having fancy kit unless you know how to adjust it for best effect Wink  

And I've know many racers who have Richard from Maxton in their pits on race w/end to fine tune their suspension to the prevailing conditions,as the more dialed in it gets ,the more it's out for different conditions which is something to consider on a road going bike.
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 14:02
Ok,just looked at your link for the Ktec and it's new valve bodies complete to fit the standard cartridge.

If it were me and I decided to go this route I'd also go for their adjusters as well.  The standard Showa bleed valves are very abrupt and after about the first 1 3/4 turns out from closed are effectively wide open and do sod all past that point. This is an area where the Ohlins is much better as OE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 00:32
ok the valve is now out and it can't be reused :)
There are two shallow grooves/dimples on the bottom of the cartridge where the compression valve sits. I think these protrude slightly inside and doesn't let the valve move up inside the cartridge. The valve was not really stuck because of dirt or bent cartridge as I did notice that the bottom bolt when tightened all the way into the valve-turns out there is no damage to threads anywhere as I was suspecting in my previous post-does rotate it but the rotation was not very smooth. 
These grooves are slightly lower to the holes meant for the fluid to escape as you'd see in the pic below. Other than stopping the valve moving up I can't think of any other function for these? Or are these some kind of drill guide as I think I read somewhere that these cartridges need drilling for revalve, can't recall which site was that. 

Or is it that I am missing some very obvious trick here?

@IanG , I am surprised the valves slid out easily for you. Are there any differences between the showas across years for the gen1?

Now I surely will need new valves so Ktech SSK it is. 
And yes I'd get the flow control valves/adjusters as well. Makes me think I could just have sourced some used ohlins off an rsvr. After all said and done I'd end up spending may be 100-150 less than the going price for them. Cry  

Think I'll phone up either jhs racing bristol or brooks suspension and see if they will help with the shim stack .I am not going to use their labour so not sure how much engagement I can get out of them. 
Race labs in Bournemouth are local to me but the price listednev is almost twice so think won't bother them.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 00:36
here are the photos-



This groove(the other is diametrically opposite to it) became slightly shallower than before when the valve came out as it pressed against the detent.
I checked, the CBR cartridge didn't have these depressions so had no problems then.

Check out the compression valve as it came out-


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 13:03
None of my forks had those dimples,I have read that some do though.

I never thought to mention the possibility as I'd never come across it before with my 2 sets of axial and 2 seats of radial.

Now with hindsight I can see it on your second pic,the resolution was so bad it wasn't immediately obvious before. Had I seen that the method is to lightly drill the dimple out Wink

It's totally redundant anyway,just a way of keeping inquisitive fingers away from the cartridge internals.

Use a smoothish flat file to flatten the burrs on the body and gently remove the dimple from the inside of the tube with a half round file until the body slides and all will be as good as new.

The wire clip and spring pressure stops the valve body moving in use

Used Ohlins would still need a service and probably re valving to be as good as re valved Showa.

I don't doubt that standard OE Ohlins are slightly more dialled in than OE Showa but they are a completely different animal to the Road & Track Ohlins people seem to confuse them with
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 13:50
hmm, so there are differences between the showa 43 mm between mille gen1 models.
Which year model do you have? Is it the later 2000 onwards one?
I think I am going to do the same with my other fork. Just hammer it in. The burrs on the inside are flattened by the valve on the way up and then later down-of course it gets destroyed in the process :)
If course some sanding down has to be done to completely remove any thickness.But before that I need to make sure that the SSK kit comes with new valves.

Edit- I checked part numbers for early and later gen1 and they are different parts.
The cartridge is listed as #9 in the parts diag
98-99
AP8123830

2001 +
AP8163034

falco
AP8123830

I am pretty sure the difference is not only the dimpleless cartridge tube, but has to be some shimming changes for altered damping properties although no way to confirm this. I do think the dimensions are all same-again no way to confirm this as well.
Also speaking with some people in the know, the burrs on the compression valve shouldn't be a problem as it's going to be stationary inside the cartridge plus there is a rubber seal on the shim stack as well. Besides,drilling the dimples out would also cause some burring/marking on the compression valve seat as well anyway, so I am going to reuse the valve seat-a bit of sanding to smoothen out the burrs and it shoujld be good

I contacted JHS racing in Bristol for a quote on the kit and this is what they replied-

me-

"I am looking to buy an SSK piston kit for an aprilia rsv mille 1999 and the flow control valves as well. Please can you advise what'd be the total cost? 

Does the kit come with only shim stack or it supplies complete valve plus shims?

I plan to fit them myself so was wondering if you'd be able to help with the shim sizes as per my weight/preferences etc?

"


Their reply-


K-Tech do indeed list a SSK Piston kit for your machine, they do not however list the compression Flow control valves.  The K-Tech piston kit is a product which requires specialist tooling to fit, therefore K-Tech requests that we do not supply this product directly to the customer, it will need to be fitted by an authorised service centre, such as ourselves.  Should you wish to send your forks to us we can certainly service your forks and supply & fit the piston kit.  I have noted some prices below for your perusal:

 

K-Tech Piston Kit                                                         £229.99

K-Tech fork springs to riders weight (optional)         £ 85.00

Fork service & fitting of piston kit to loose forks       £180.00

 Please do let me know if this is of interest to you or if we can be of any further assistance.

ConfusedLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 17:06
There you go,vested interests trying to mystify the work and keep it out of the hands of the general public. Black art suspension dontcha know?   Can't have outsiders learning anything about it LOL

Mind you the way things are taught (or rather NOT) these days it could be a good thing I suppose. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 17:18
Originally posted by aaressveeguy aaressveeguy wrote:

hmm, so there are differences between the showa 43 mm between mille gen1 models.
Which year model do you have? Is it the later 2000 onwards one?


Probably pot luck in what got supplied or even someone swapping the legs at some time in the past

I have  2002 on my Mille with a donor set for internals off an earlier model, plus two sets of 2009 radial type
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 17:30
Ok, so phoned Brook Suspension in Bradford for the kit. After initially saying Ktech forbids selling the kits, when I told them I have the valves out already etc they agreed to the sale. 
KTech website does indeed say the units have to be fitted at a authorized store and won't be available for general sale.They donot list the flow control valves for the mille although they do for the Falco. The rep initially thought the Falco ones should fit but after consulting their technical team said no they won't. 
I know now there are differences between the showa forks even between the Gen1s, so didn't risk it, and did not push him on that.

total cost is 
SSK KIT- £220
NOK bushes £32 

I'd spend some more time researching the flow control valve fitment- thinking of shooting an email to Ktech. May be lookup the parts fiche and see if the part numbers are different between the Falco and Mille for pre 2000 bikes. or may be just give it a miss?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 17:34
Next up after the fork rebuild is resealing the engine. I noticed, besides the valve covers, there is some leakage at the clutch pushrod behind the slave cylinder as well as some from the gearshifting shaft. Possibly some from the generator cover as well. So think I'd replace all seals which I can within reason.
I see rocker cover gaskets are available with AP, but nothing for the clutch pusrod  or gearsh*t. Anyone else had to do these?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 20:48
Originally posted by aaressveeguy aaressveeguy wrote:

Next up after the fork rebuild is resealing the engine. I noticed, besides the valve covers, there is some leakage at the clutch pushrod behind the slave cylinder as well as some from the gearshifting shaft. Possibly some from the generator cover as well. So think I'd replace all seals which I can within reason.
I see rocker cover gaskets are available with AP, but nothing for the clutch pusrod  or gearsh*t. Anyone else had to do these?
just phone AP they may not have the best website but can supply anything you want even if it’s not listed 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2019 at 20:47
Thanks red for the links. I ordered the SSK kit and bushes off Brook suspension.
Looking at the race tech links you posted they look like only shim stack which means the stock valve seat would have to be reused. In my case, I need the valve seats as well-check photo above- so the SSK kit suits as they come as entire unit ready to be installed in the cartridge :)

I phone AP up and had a good chat with Griff-great lad-and he would send the valve cover seals and the clutch pushrod casing and gearshift shaft seals as well- approx £80 I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 21:23
Brook sent me the wrong kit the first time. They acted quickly upon contact and I now have the correct kit. The wrong kit was for an ohlins gen 2 model and I was shocked to see how much fatter they are compared to the gen 1 oem showa valves

Photos below. Have to figure out how to fit the 2 adjsuters 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 21:31

THis one is the correct kit

THe wrong kit below





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 21:54
@IanG what torque did you use for the compression valve hex bolt? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 23:30
Pretty sure there's not a value listed as it's not something they expect people to remove,so going on that basis you use common sense and experience  Wink

Just tight enough and not too tight LOL


Ah, just had a thought are you referring to the compression valve bolt with the copper washer at the bottom?  I was thinking comp bleed valve body on the lower fork leg.

If so I may have a value for that one somewhere but my data and manuals are tucked away at this time so difficult to check.   If that is the bolt in question either use a new copper washer or anneal the old one ( I think mine was copper,can't be totally sure) but I do remember annealing some washers as they weren't a size I had any spares for.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 23:43
Found it

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2019 at 17:54
@IanG, I was looking for the torque for the hex bolt which goes through the shim stack into the top of the compression valve. You are right, nothing for it(or the rebound valve) in manual.
I had the torque value for the lower clamp bolt though, but thanks anyway. 
Asked the dealer I got the kit from and they  said medium torque...
I am done with the revalving but can't put the forks together as need to wrap the outer. WOuld be much easier to do now as fully assembled would be heavy to deal with

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aaressveeguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2019 at 11:13
Have a much clearer view of the engine and there are many places it seems to be leaking from. I am a bit concerned it's leaking from the head itself as well as from the valve cover.
There is a drop full of oil in the neutral position sensor groove. I see a very small drip under the rear exhaust flange where there is a small slit in the crankcase. Not 100% sure if it's from the slit itself or rolling down from above, although the top looks clean.
THere could be some seepage from the alternator case, may be even clutch case. I'd post photos.
I am now thinking I'd drop the engine and give it a good clean and proper once over and refresh all the seals.
Since the valve cover are coming off, I'd also check clearances. 
How difficult it's to drop? I have been reading up on it and there are ton of threads on AF1 forum. My question is- Is it possible to do it with the bike propped up on the abba stand? The abba uses the swingarm bolt/nut to pivot. I read that the swingarm nut has to be removed/loosened? Or do I have to remove the abba and use a paddoc, although with forks removed, not sure how I'd manage it

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badapple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2019 at 13:43
I've never dropped the engine from a mille but referring to the abba stand situation you can buy adapters that use the rearset mount points. I was lucky to get lent some by a fellow member when I needed to remove the swingarm and they are perfect, also compatible with most bikes so you can use them instead of the frame adapters. 
I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left
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