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IanG View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 17:33
AGAIN!! Wink

Just an update on my JMT JTX14H-FP-SI  Lithium battery

For anyone worried enough to faff about with battery tenders and the added worry of cooking your expensive battery by doing so I can give some reassurance

I leave my Gen 2 T for weeks on end unattended and it always starts when the first piston gets to it's firing point.

This time was a good test,left just over 8 weeks as I forgot to run the bike up before I left on extended holiday  Embarrassed

Checked the flying lead with inbuilt led charge indication which was showing 100% charge,switched on and hoped..........

Just like flicking on a light switch,it's that instant. No turning over,no stressing,just instant start

So anyone still sitting on the fence,just do it!!!

Throw your optimisers in the bin where they belong and join the modern world,you really won't regret it

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 19:38
Just one more thing ..do not accuse the delivery man of handing you an empty box ...Embarrassed
If you find us in a hedge check the bike first please .. I`m free on the NHS...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 19:40
True that,even though I'd been warned,I thought I had an empty box Embarrassed



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hangry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 20:26
yep I even took it into work n they all thought it was an empty box 
The things are brilliant Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 10:03
I'm gutted I only learned about them shortly after replacing a dying battery. Can't justify dicarding a perfectly good AGM now for a lithium.. Probably last a record time too knowing my luck LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 10:15
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

Throw your optimisers in the bin where they belong and join the modern world,you really won't regret it

I here you Ian but I'm still not convinced due to the capacity issue. Maybe I'm just blind or a luddite. If they produced lithium batteries with higher capacities I would be far more likely to take the plunge. Confused

Ever since you pointed me to Tayna batteries near you and I got one of their own brand high CCA, AGM jobs mines been absolutely perfect. Three years now and starts first turn as you say even when left without the optimiser for a few weeks. It was on my Optimate over the winter mind as without disconnecting the battery (Or pulling the 30A fuses) the ECU/dash drain will flatten any battery over that time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 10:28
I think I'd rather have several strong cranks in a battery than a hundred half arsed ones.

My old AGM towards the end of it's life struggled to crank the engine over straight off the charger. Of course the replacement sorted it but I know over time those initial cranks will get weaker and weaker. Though on the plus side it should still retain enough capacity to fully knacker the sprag if I wanted to keep pushing the starter.

Think this forum has given me an unhealthy paranoia about starting the bike LOL. If I'm not going to ride it for a couple of days I disconnect the cable from the negative battery terminal.

I'm also not 100% about whether a 2003 Gen 1 will drain a battery if you don't do the immobiliser sync thing so I tend to avoid the risk and only connect the battery when I ride.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 10:52
Originally posted by blacklines blacklines wrote:

I think I'd rather have several strong cranks in a battery than a hundred half arsed ones.

Agreed, that's why a high CCA battery is essential but that can come from lithium, AGM or whatever. It's the spec that matters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 14:56
Shakes head sadly. Cry  You can take a horse to the water but........................ Confused

I used to leave both my SV1000s and my Mille unattended for no longer than 4 weeks before starting them and running them up to temp a couple of times when I still used Lead Acid batteries.

The SV was less of an issue as it's centrifugal de-compressors eased starting load,but it did have a Meta alarm fitted. At those intervals I found the SV unable to start once or twice towards the end of my ownership,and a few times the Mille was so sluggish to fire it only started as I released the button.

The very fact that a Li-Ion  ( a budget one at that Wink) can have the attached indicator lead showing 100% charge and instantly start the Tuono after 8 weeks surely proves the case?

They do say there's nothing as conservative ( small c) as a motorcyclist,I tend to agree,although it's funny how everyone seems to think things like radial calipers and extra injectors are so ' Must have' and yet they ignore probably the biggest single advance in technology.

After all,what's the point in having a high tech bike with all the advances if it won't start when you need it ?

Take a leap of faith,trust me,you'll never go back to lead acid.

Also just changing to a modern battery probably saves more weight than a full set of carbon race bodywork


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Af1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 15:49

you can always fit a bigger amp battery , say 16AH instead of 14AH if thats what worries you ! The lithium batteries are half the size !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 16:03
Very true,but the big ones start to get expensive then.

Part of the appeal is a tiny,lightweight battery for a reasonable price that does a good job.

I seldom ride either of my bikes to keep them charged and they live in a garage without mains power so a lithium that lasts at full power for a couple of months at least is ideal for me. 

I think I payed less than £120 for the battery,a charger and the flying lead with indicator leds that sits under the rear seat,which for me represents good value for money.

It will be another one the same for when I need to resurrect the track bike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 16:08
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

I need to resurrect the track bike
Move yer ass Tongue
If you find us in a hedge check the bike first please .. I`m free on the NHS...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 16:52
LOL

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 18:03
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

Shakes head sadly. Cry  You can take a horse to the water but........................ Confused


Yeah, I know. Maybe when the Tayna special fails me.  Big smile

but I'm more than pleased with it given the grief everyone seems to have including me with that Motobatt I was initially so enthusiastic about.   Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 18:04
Originally posted by Af1 Af1 wrote:

you can always fit a bigger amp battery , say 16AH instead of 14AH if thats what worries you ! The lithium batteries are half the size !

Most of them seem to have capacities around the 7Ah which is my concern. I'd be happy with 14Ah if it still had a high CCA.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 18:11
Doesn't work like that with Lithium,those kind of reserves are just not needed.

If a Lithium or any other battery doesn't give you an almost instantaneous start then you have others issues more pressing to address.

I'm afraid too many people have swallowed the old wives tales regarding batteries and the benefits of trickle chargers.

Times move on,I was a little hesitant to go the Lithium route but decided 'what the hell,give it a go'

Trust me,there is no need for a half ton lead acid weighing down your bike

Perhaps the earth is flat after all . Hmm Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 18:33
What about Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries?
Were these available when you fitted the Ion battery?
Sounds like the Iron Phosphate offer all the advantages of the Ion without the possible volatility.
I'm no expert so this is just a cut and paste:

The lithium-iron (LiFePo4) battery has a slight edge over the Li-ion (LiCoO2) battery for safety. This is important because a battery should not get overheated or catch fire in case of overcharging.The lithium-iron battery has superior chemical and thermal stability. A Lithium-iron battery remains cool at room temperature while the Li-ion may suffer thermal runaway and heats up faster under similar charging conditions.LiFePO4 is a nontoxic material, but LiCoO2 is hazardous in nature, so is not considered a safe material. Disposal of Li-ion battery is a big concern for the manufacturer and user. .

Interesting and informative info here:

https://www.newcastlesys.com/blog/lithium-ion-vs-lithium-iron-batteries

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 19:48
Yes,I think all the bike batteries available now are the later type.

Those early things were a disaster waiting to happen with the fuse already lit.

Nil chance of an unscheduled bonfire I think with a bike battery bought these days.

I used Lithium ion  as a general term to differentiate between that class and lead acid without going into specs any deeper .

  JMT guff   

FAQ

         
  1. Who makes the JMT brand?
  2.    

    JMT is the own brand of one of the  biggest motorcycle distributor in Europe. With a HQ in Hamburg, they supply  10,000s of professional services and racing teams.
          JMT is the official supplier for  KTM and TM Racing for lithium batteries and they are used in the 2016 KTM  models as standard.
          JMT products are going through a  vigorous German quality control and all products are covered with a 24 months  manufacturer warranty.

         
  3. Why JMT lithium batteries are cheaper than  other brands?
  4.    

    JMT lithium batteries are the best selling lithium in Europe  and therefore they can save on manufacturing and transporting costs.

         
  5. What are the pros to buy a lithium battery?
  6.    
           
    • Superb       Cranking Capacity - up to 50% more than Lead-Acid batteries
    •      
    • Weight       - up to 75% less weight than Lead-Acid batteries
    •      
    • No       Sulphating - longer service life
    •      
    • Lower       Self Discharge - can last longer without recharging
    •      
    • Excellent       Cycle Life - more than 2,000 cycles (Lead - Acid batteries 200-300)
    •      
    • Drop-in       replacement - 1 to 1 replacement dimensions for OEM battery, no modification       needed to the motorcycle
    •      
    • Less       Fuel Consumption - thanks to higher OCV the engine works more efficiently
    •      
    • Super-fast       Recharge - very high recharging rate through high current
    •      
    • No       explosion risk - no gasses are produced during charge or discharge
    •      
    • No       maintenance - no acid fill, no leak risk, can be mounted in any position       (great for project bikes or bike builders)
    •      
    • Stable       Discharge Voltage - better engine performance, easy engine start
    •      
    • Ecological       advantage - no pollution, no lead, no acid, safe & normal disposal
    •    
         
  7. Do I need a lithium specific charger?
  8.    

    The best and most secure way to  charge your lithium battery is to use a lithium specific charger as  they are optimised for your battery.
          JMT LITHIUM batteries can be  charged with most intelligent Lead-Acid battery chargers. However, there is ONE  VERY IMPORTANT RESTRICTION:
          Every intelligent Lead-Acid  charger has a de-sulphating mode. And this de-sulphating mode works different  depending on the charger brand or type. Some chargers use a high current pulse  to de-sulphate the Lead-Acid batteries. This is safe for JMT Lithium batteries.  But others use a high Voltage mode to de-sulphate Lead-Acid batteries. And this  is dangerous for EVERY lithium battery. This high voltage can damage the  internal cells of Lithium batteries. As a general rule: check if your charger  NEVER goes above 15 Volt, and it can be used properly for Lithium batteries.  Chargers that use a high voltage characteristic, must also check the internal  resistance of the battery. Some intelligent chargers will recognize that the  internal resistance is low in JMT LITHIUM batteries. That is why they judge  that the battery is not sulphated and they will not switch to the high voltage  mode. But anyway you must be very careful with this kind of chargers. Another  typical fact on JMT LITHIUM batteries is that they don't like “Trickle Charging”.  Trickle charging is the stage where the battery cells lie under constant light  over – voltage to compensate the natural self – discharge.

         
  9. Is there one available for my motorbike?
  10.    

    Yes, definitely. JMT has a wide range of lithium batteries  (12V or 6V) to replace any maintenance free, gel or conventional battery. If  you can't find the battery you  need,  just let us know the make, model and year of your motorbike or the old battery  model number and we will be happy to assist in finding the best battery for  your bike.

         
  11. Will this battery definitely fit my bike?
  12.    

    Yes! All JMT lithium batteries are designed to be a perfect  and direct replacement for your old battery.

         
  13. Why there is more than one heights (does  not apply for all batteries)?
  14.    

    The smallest number reflects to the actual battery heights  while the other number(s) are referring to the heights with the spacer(s).

         
  15. Why the capacity is lower than in my  previous battery?
  16.    

    With every battery there are two very important  specifications which you need to take into consideration. One of them is the  capacity, the other is the cold cranking amps (CCA). To put it in the simplest  way, capacity reflect how long would it take for your battery to go flat say  when you leave the headlight on (when the engine is not running), while the CCA  is for how much power it generates when starting the bike.
          In conventional batteries the capacity and the CCA are  linked (the more capacity the better CCA). To produce enough power for starting  the bike the capacity needs to be needlessly high, otherwise it wouldn't be  able to start the bike. In lithium batteries this increase wasn't necessary  since it generally have higher CCA (as it can use nearly 100% of the capacity  for the cold cranking while for conventional and maintenance free batteries it  is only 30%).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 19:56
I replaced 2 of my bikes lead acid batteries last year before thinking about Lithium, and the Tuono's lead acid is still going strong. Going to have to wait a while I guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 20:22
Originally posted by legend88 legend88 wrote:

Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

Shakes head sadly. Cry  You can take a horse to the water but........................ Confused


Yeah, I know. Maybe when the Tayna special fails me.  Big smile

but I'm more than pleased with it given the grief everyone seems to have including me with that Motobatt I was initially so enthusiastic about.   Wink

What's up with the motobatt? That's what I got as to replace my old yuas a that was too weak to start the bike consistently.  The spec and reviews seemed much better than the upgraded yuasa I was looking at and it was about 20% cheaper too from memory. I've had no grief from mine butI've only used it about 18 months.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 09:42
I looked into motobatt but they had a lot of poor reviews. For lead acid you can't fault Yuasa, was cheap too from Halfords with their trade card.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 10:59
Fair enough, we must be looking at different parts of the internet ha. All I'd seen is how the cranking power and reliability blows the Yuasa away. I just had a quick search now and nothing on the front page shows anything negative. Sure there's something out there but it has to be in the minority, unless my internet skills aren't as good as I thought.

Was there anything in particular that was bad about them? Just saying I'd like some warning if it's prone to exploding and igniting my balls or something like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 11:07
Can't remember the exact details but I think quite a few users had them die unexpectedly

I seem to recall some comments about 'a bad batch/manufacturing problems etc'

Have you done a search on here? I think there were a couple  of disgruntled users a while back,but I'll be the first to say the search function on here leaves much to be desired.

I was going to buy one but these comments persuaded me to take a punt on lithium and I'm really glad I took that leap of faith.

Hopefully your Mottabat will be ok.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 11:14
I know what you're saying about the search Ian. Going advanced and selecting "all time" and older helps. Great forum for the people on it but not the best technically. I lost an entire thread on here about rearsets for some reason, writing posts on a phone does weird things I've never seen happen on other forums and a mate managed to lose his account and have all history wiped clean converting his premium account back to a regular one.

Having said that, the search turned up a couple results about what sounds like motobatt dropping a cell or something over winter. I.e. working great then suddenly not working. So far mine's outlasted the previous Yuasa and was cheaper. With any luck it'll die this winter and I can get a lithium for next year LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 11:31
Thanks for the tips,I never have much luck with search on here so perhaps I'll have more luck in future.

Regarding batteries in general I think it's a bit of a lottery most times.

I had the OEM Yuasa in the SV for over 9 years before it died,replacement Yuasa in the Mille lasted about 3 years I think. Car batteries are no better,some last many years some last a couple at best.

Given that my JMT didn't cost the earth considering I got a charger at the same time I'm happy as it better suits the way I use ( or not) my bike.

Others may not need the extended reserves but given the lack of mains in my garage it's great I can leave them for months and decide to dust one off and know I can guarantee an instant start

How long it will last is anyones guess but I'm sold on the concept

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 14:45
I have to agree with the plus points of switching to lithium,  I to have the JMT HJX14H-FP it's only been on for just over 2 months (probably 1K mls) and so for it's been faultless ( hope I'm not jinxing it Smile ) So for I'm a lithium convert not only was it a reasonable price, it's light ( and I mean bloody light the empty box analogy is absolutely true), the battery can also be mounted in any position so the plan is to relocate it either to the tail piece (once I've decided which I'm going to fit) or into the nose cone ( space permitting).
 One potential disadvantage / problem could be recharging a depleted/flat battery, I have bought a dedicated charger and I think while the bike is in regular use ( over the summer) I won't need one but I'm not sure what I'll do if I find I have flat battery, either through lack of use or some mechanical issue. There seems to be conflicting opinion on charging now I know you can't leave them on a trickle the mixed messages are regarding normal charging, some say (TM Top Gear) you need a lithium specific charger, while others state if you don't exceed 14.6v then a regular lead acid charger can be used although it MUST be fully disconnected when charged, ironically modern 'smart' chargers with an automatic "equalisation mode" should not be used, the smart charge process is not suitable for lithium so I think it probably best to use a dedicated charger where possible. Once a lithium battery as been damaged by incorrect charge voltage or as been depleted passed a certain point is will not be recoverable, unlike a lead acid battery you can't "shock it back to life" it will be bricked.. Lithium battery's also suffer decreased performance in colder conditions and may benefit from been warmed up, this doesn't mean getting the heat gun on the battery but making do a little work to 'wake up ' the cells something like putting the lights on a for moment or so before cranking. 
So it's not all good news but overall I think pros out weigh the cons and given the reasonable prices then lithium is well worth a punt.

Just quick note re Motobatt batteries, a good mate of mine recovers broken down bikes ( SOS Motorcycle Recovery) and he told me when he goes to a bike with battery issues it's usually a Motobatt that is fitted, just saying ...    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 14:58
Further to possible recovery of a discharged Lithium unit I have read that it's possible if you do it  with another battery in parallel ?

No idea myself and hopefully I never have to find out but as I always have a 12v battery spare somewhere it could happen

Till then given the amount of rain coming down atm I could well be leaving my bike for another 8 weeks before starting it again Cry

Hope the garage doesn't get too wet inside
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk

Looking forward to the next track day
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john mac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john mac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 15:23
hi i have a motobatt in one bike and have been told by a guy with a harley optimates ect bugger them and you need a pulse charger he found this out by experiance im now looking for a battery for the mille sitting on the fence at the minute 
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legend88 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 16:56
For info, my Motobatt dropped a cell or something. It showed fine on a multimeter over the terminals (Not just on the dash) and showed fully charged on the charger but would not start the engine. However when checking voltage during attempted start it immediately dropped to about 7 volts! This was after just over 12 months from new (It may have been earlier but that's when I started prepping after the winter and found the problem.)

I bought the Motobatt due to the excellent specs especially the cranking amps but after mine failed I did find loads of negative info about them on the internet. Maybe it was a bad batch as Ian suggested but I don't think I would risk buying one again. I'm not sure about the need for a special charger as if this were the case they would provide this information with the battery in the way they do with lithium batteries but they don't.

Re lithium depletion, this is a serious problem with power tools. They are fine for pro users who use their tools daily (And therefore charge them daily too) but for hobby users, dead batteries are a very common thing. I have a drill and driver combo with two dead lithium batteries after less than one year of non use but my earlier NiMHyd drill still worked after treble the dormant period.

Lithium batteries also are prone to explode - just ask Samsung!  Evil Smile



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 17:41
Yeah that sounds like a dropped cell if it loses voltage under load.

I bought the Motobatt charger with the battery as it was much cheaper than optimates etc. Think AGM batteries do need AGM specific chargers though (doesn't have to be a Motobatt charger). If your Tanya is also an AGM then it might be worth getting an AGM charger if you don't want it going the same way.

I can't remember if they tell you on the box or not. I know naff all about batteries but had read either on eBay or the motobatt website that you need an AGM charger so I got one at the same time as the battery.

Think it's the other type of lithium battery that explodes. As far as I'm aware bike batteries use the second type LiFePo? Look at Stevex's post up the page.
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