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    Posted: 15 May 2020 at 21:40
No disrespect to Jolly, but has anyone else got before/ after dynos on this thing. Thinking about it again after a year.

And Jolly, take a look at my adventure with Kent cams and you'll surely understand why I am asking.

It would be easy to test, just the spend haha!
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & KTM 625 SXC -05
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hangry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 13:09
Only one iv seen is on track electrics f/book gen1 before and after dyno.dont know about what engine mods they had thoThumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 21:53
Well, what I am looking into is a comparison of the difference. No matter what mods as long as they are the same in both runs.
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & KTM 625 SXC -05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 04:35
Not a single one? Dig in deeper lads!
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & KTM 625 SXC -05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 08:53
I asked this about a year ago, nothing came. I don't think even Jolly has before and after comparison runs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kiwi_rsvr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 08:56
You may need to ask over on AF1 as well, I've seen many varients over the years, carbon fibre, aluminium, fibreglass etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 09:33
I posted a link a few days ago to Micahs dyno runs comparing an evo air box mod to the stock airbox and comparing third party air filters to oem. 

They all made less power, the evo airbox mod by quite a bit ( based on a gen1)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paddedcell100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 11:22
Jolly did get a dyno test done when he made his newer gen 1 version and it showed good results according to the dyno graph.


Better to have something you don't need than need something you don't have....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 11:39
Originally posted by Paddedcell100 Paddedcell100 wrote:

Jolly did get a dyno test done when he made his newer gen 1 version and it showed good results according to the dyno graph.



Hmm. If you look at the afr at the points where the power gains are on the modded air box run, the mixture has gone significantly richer. Hard to see how that happened from adding more air flow alone on a bike with no active manipulation ( lambda, pc3 etc ) ?

If it were a run with a modded map to compensate for more air flow it makes more sense but no mention of that. Or the modded air box is actually flowing less air and the bike is benefitting from a richer mix. ( unlikely as the afr is leaner at lower revs on the same run, it either flows more or less, not both) 

I may be missing something but it asks more questions than it answers to me. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paddedcell100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 11:59
Honestly, dyno graph workings and minutiae are a bit above my pay grade🙈😂....so I couldnt say anything about the exact workings of that, I just thought it would be handy, and fair to Ian, to post up his own dyno comparison graph.
 I remain a bit sceptical about the overall merits of some airbox mods although I do still think a good quality ,properly sealed , increased airbox capacity mod, such as an Ironbite or Edward's, does give you a decent ch8nk of extra midrange and people do report good "seat of the pants" increases from Jollys trays ,which is the real test I suppose...if you fit one, ridevit and are happy with it,then it's a winner, plus it's as much to do with that airbox growl as anything else really isn't it(although I'm getting old now so.i prefer the more subdued sound of a sealed type 👴🏻😉). 
Better to have something you don't need than need something you don't have....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 12:24
Originally posted by Paddedcell100 Paddedcell100 wrote:

Honestly, dyno graph workings and minutiae are a bit above my pay grade🙈😂....so I couldnt say anything about the exact workings of that, I just thought it would be handy, and fair to Ian, to post up his own dyno comparison graph.
 I remain a bit sceptical about the overall merits of some airbox mods although I do still think a good quality ,properly sealed , increased airbox capacity mod, such as an Ironbite or Edward's, does give you a decent ch8nk of extra midrange and people do report good "seat of the pants" increases from Jollys trays ,which is the real test I suppose...if you fit one, ridevit and are happy with it,then it's a winner, plus it's as much to do with that airbox growl as anything else really isn't it(although I'm getting old now so.i prefer the more subdued sound of a sealed type 👴🏻😉). 

They have their merits but only as part of a package. As in you can manipulate the fueling to match more air availability etc. But for a stock bike with maybe a can there is enough evidence to show they do very little if anything as Micah proved. 

If you think about the mid range gain that’s often claimed for otherwise stock bikes it doesn’t really stack up. Your stock air box isn’t flowing enough air in mid range and gains 10bhp or so from more air but same fuel. Hmm on bikes that are generally lean in the mid range anyway and I just added more air and it got better ?

As designs go Jolly’s looks far better than the ally ring and rubber seal ( although seal it doesn’t ) versions. So if you’re setup merits a higher air flow you could do a lot worse. And it looks nice

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 12:54

Most talk about airbox mods is usually people guessing more volume is better. Which ignores the fact the air in the airbox is replaced so many times a second there's no way a bigger airbox provides a bigger store of air. Those in the know talk about laminar flow in the airbox. It's all way beyond me but seems more feasible than just chucking out factory designed parts.

Jolly's airboxes are the prettiest of all mods I've seen though. I like how the air ducts feed straight in, ignoring the air boot. That should get some extra pressure in there for forced air. But then it's not sealed so all that extra input just flows straight out doesn't it Confused

Also, am I reading those charts wrong or does it actually get leaner as expected? Rather than richer as you said Spoons?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 13:29
The whole thing came about from the wsb version airbox. It’s on a factory bike which makes oodles of power etc and it got copied. 

But that was a higher revving, short stroke, race engine ridden flat out and rebuilt every week. I’m not sure anyone has produced any evidence that there has ever been an airflow restriction on the road bike in stock trim. ( excluding the euro 100bhp versions) Doing so in that era would have no merits for an oem as restricting it doesn’t benefit power or emissions. Fueling is a different story, hence why the Aprilia race cans came with an eeprom. 

It’s horses for courses I guess and each to their own but I’m not convinced. When I got my first rsv in 2000, I was talked into buying a Leo Vinci carbon can by the dealer when having it serviced. After he test rode it he said, wow that’s awesome now, let’s throw it on the dyno for a before and after just for the hell of it as a comparison as it’s the first one we have fitted.  It made diddly squat power difference but sounded like it gained 500bhp. Such is the power of the placebo effect, he was as surprised as me.  




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 13:45
Hmm.... looks like there are no short cuts. Getting more power out of my 1060 would then require increasing compression and decreasing squish (0,1 from both the head and cylinder should be safe) and probably porting too.

Another sneaky idea I got was to try to reshape the useless KENT APR03 inlets so that the closing side would mimic OEM inlets. They are billet so not sure if it can be done.....

Bugger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 14:21
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Hmm.... looks like there are no short cuts. Getting more power out of my 1060 would then require increasing compression and decreasing squish (0,1 from both the head and cylinder should be safe) and probably porting too.

Another sneaky idea I got was to try to reshape the useless KENT APR03 inlets so that the closing side would mimic OEM inlets. They are billet so not sure if it can be done.....

Bugger

To prove your hunch on the inlet cams why not fit the Kent exhaust cam and oem inlet and see what happens. I think I’m right in saying they have been swapped in pairs so far.  You could be modding the inlet cam only to find it’s not or only part of the problem.  You could also answer the airbox question by going to the stock airbox. Be interesting to see how it performs by comparison on a modded engine. I’ll send you the version on my bike if you want to compare. It’s the one ap sell based on an evo I think

I realise dyno time costs £££ 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 14:21
Gabro tested a bunch of setups and found the stock can actually did better than an Arrow system. It didn't have the 5k dip and made pretty much the same peak power. That was a full throttle run though and apparently at smaller throttle openings the race cans were more powerful.

Still though, to me that just sounds like a progressive throttle really. Because full throttle is where you want most of the power. At smaller throttle openings such as cornering surely you can just open it a little further.. The reason I don't use the stock exhaust is the massive weight really. If I could mod it to be as light as a race can while staying just as quiet as it is and make the same power then I'd be really happy. Still sounds amazing flat out anyway, just sounds different at lower revs to me. Get it beyond noise testing revs and it's no quieter than an open exhaust.

JMH, you could try boring it out to 1102 ha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 14:47
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Hmm.... looks like there are no short cuts. Getting more power out of my 1060 would then require increasing compression and decreasing squish (0,1 from both the head and cylinder should be safe) and probably porting too.

Another sneaky idea I got was to try to reshape the useless KENT APR03 inlets so that the closing side would mimic OEM inlets. They are billet so not sure if it can be done.....

Bugger

To prove your hunch on the inlet cams why not fit the Kent exhaust cam and oem inlet and see what happens. I think I’m right in saying they have been swapped in pairs so far.  You could be modding the inlet cam only to find it’s not or only part of the problem.  You could also answer the airbox question by going to the stock airbox. Be interesting to see how it performs by comparison on a modded engine. I’ll send you the version on my bike if you want to compare. It’s the one ap sell based on an evo I think

I realise dyno time costs £££ 



All my 1060 dyno runs are with stock airbox and OEM paper filter.

Dyno time is quite cheap for me and only 30 minutes away. I have only Kent inlets. I paired them with OEM inlets. Double inlets are proven. The power drop came from the kent inlets. They close too late. The fart has escaped by the time the inlet closes and it cannot be adjusted to close earlier due to clearance issues. Hence the cunning idea about an asymmetric cam to enable an early opening but still close pretty much at the same time as the OEM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 15:08
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All my 1060 dyno runs are with stock airbox and OEM paper filter.

Dyno time is quite cheap for me and only 30 minutes away. I have only Kent inlets. I paired them with OEM inlets. Double inlets are proven. The power drop came from the kent inlets. They close too late. The fart has escaped by the time the inlet closes and it cannot be adjusted to close earlier due to clearance issues. Hence the cunning idea about an asymmetric cam to enable an early opening but still close pretty much at the same time as the OEM.

Got ya, I thought you were asking about the jolly airbox as you had one and wanted to check if others had gains with it. 

Have Kent had any input on this. You would like to think that they ran the scenario. Can you not use a compression tester to see if the inlet is still partially open at the start of the compression stroke ?  If you fit a Kent inlet cam to one cylinder and monitor at how many degrees the compression rises and by how much and then change cam to oem etc. If the Kent cam is overlapping you should see the difference. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 15:26
Inlets close always ABDC during compression stroke in these things. The question is how late.

 Compression testing and such is pointless as I have a dyno run before the change to kents, the kent run, and after changing back again. All with known cam timings. Results don’t lie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 15:31
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:


Got ya, I thought you were asking about the jolly airbox as you had one and wanted to check if others had gains with it.

This is not how I operate, haha!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 15:53
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Inlets close always ABDC during compression stroke in these things. The question is how late.

 Compression testing and such is pointless as I have a dyno run before the change to kents, the kent run, and after changing back again. All with known cam timings. Results don’t lie.

Not sure I get that, I may be missing something though. The timing has a 2 fold effect on the same cam, altering it changes both open and closing times. so is the observed power drop with timing because the valve closed too late or opened too late ?  If you alter the timing to earlier is the benefit because it closed earlier or opened earlier. Unless you have variable cams how do you make the distinction when your altering 2 variables. 

I’m not sure how you determine where that point of failure is on the Kent cam from a dyno run. ? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 16:25
I asked if the jolly dyno included the arrows exhaust in the before run as if it did it shouldn’t have shown the midrange dip as they have a collector like a modded collector ???  Never got given an answer 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 17:41
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Inlets close always ABDC during compression stroke in these things. The question is how late.

 Compression testing and such is pointless as I have a dyno run before the change to kents, the kent run, and after changing back again. All with known cam timings. Results don’t lie.

Not sure I get that, I may be missing something though. The timing has a 2 fold effect on the same cam, altering it changes both open and closing times. so is the observed power drop with timing because the valve closed too late or opened too late ?  If you alter the timing to earlier is the benefit because it closed earlier or opened earlier. Unless you have variable cams how do you make the distinction when your altering 2 variables. 

I’m not sure how you determine where that point of failure is on the Kent cam from a dyno run. ? 



OEM inlet: lobe center 113 (also 107,5 tested with the same effect but a tad less difference in top)
Kent inlet: lobe center 110. Duration is 16 degrees longer though. It has opened earlier than OEM (both timings) and definitely closed later. These things work very well bottom and mid OEM inlets having lobe centers as low as 103-106 (i.e. opening early). The kents in a 1060 BB with Gen2 heads made same power as a standard engine with 2-2 Akra and a Gabro chip as the only modification between 3000-6000 loosing as much as 10 Nm torque compared to the current state, i.e. 1060 kit, timed cams, gen2 heads, 57 TB etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 18:39
I’m with you on the power difference between cams , what I’m less unsure about is what you mean by later closing that was the cause of the power loss with the Kent cam. It may just be the way it’s worded that makes the difference. 

When you talk about late closing being the issue are you meaning the point at which the valve passes lobe center is too late or when it fully closes.  Until now I’ve been assuming you meant the latter ( too much duration)  but you mentioning lobe center made me think It might be the former which then makes sense. 

I hate loose ends as you may have gathered 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 19:23
I mean the valve is closing too late after the bottom dead center with the kent inlet. Duration is too long. Cannot be adjusted to open and close earlier due to v-p clearance (with 110 lobe center it was 1.9 mm between 5-15 degrees after top dead center. The tightest reading)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 20:15
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

I mean the valve is closing too late after the bottom dead center with the kent inlet. Duration is too long. Cannot be adjusted to open and close earlier due to v-p clearance (with 110 lobe center it was 1.9 mm between 5-15 degrees after top dead center. The tightest reading)

Ok I’m with you now. I didn’t realise your duration issue was for clearance and so you had limited adjustment. It read to me that no matter how you timed it you got bad power and and clearance only became an issue at extremes of timing. 

So the idea is to shave a bit off the closing side of the lobe if you can, so you can try earlier timing and see if the changed opening time improves things. Essentially a stage 2.5 cam. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 20:36
^
Yeah, one idea. Not now, for sure, but if it still is in one piece after the summer... well, I’ll see about my motivation. Porting and increasing compression is another.

The cleverest move would be to leave it alone. It’s solid and working.

Edit: 110 is also Kent’s recommendation for the APR03
Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & KTM 625 SXC -05
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different.
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