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JMH's 1060 Big Bore project

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 21:06
Yes I wouldn’t put anymore in

You going for a custom exhaust system?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2018 at 07:41
^
Gab instructed to get closer to 5 liters. I will continue, possibly today.
 
About the system. No, just mating the Gen2 headers with the Akra Gen1 2-2 system (this is given in the first or second post Tongue). Checking also if a proper chain guide can be done at the same time to protect the exhaust. Until now I have used jubilee clips and rubber.
 
Btw. What material are those Gen1 Akra 2-2 systems?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2018 at 10:34
OK. Now it is some 4,6 - 4,7 liters and oil tank close to max. Opened the rear valve cover where I saw the buckets and cams having a happy day swimming in an oil bath.

That'll do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prsv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2018 at 13:36
Seems like a bit to much i have a bit left over from 4l can. know you have filled galorys and coolers. keep an eye on breather as it warms up think it will possibly overflow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2018 at 15:16
Yeah, need to follow the oil level and probably best to unplug the breather from the airbox.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 14:20
PCIII connection.

I did it this way:

Cut the middle wire on the TPS and soldered connectors to both ends. To the other connector I soldered and extra wire with a connector, which I then connect to the PCIII grey wire.

So, in case I want Gabro to make me one more chip with the PCIII map (very likely) I can disconnect the Commander easily and reconnect should a need arise, like further modifications.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 13:10
Pipework done:
 
Front downpipe. Shortened in two places as you can see from the welds. The welder used the original small outlets both in rear and front and welded that to the Gen2 bit taken out from the Gen2 downpipes.


Front outlet. Done in an angle straight away.


Rear downpipe and collector:


Rear outlet:




What was used from the Gen2 pipes, or in this case, what was left out:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 13:12
The interesting bit. The collector is sitting lower than it was before (maybe 15-20 mm). The clearance to the linkage is a lot more as well as to the chain. I still put the lazy man solution to protect the pipe from the chain just in case.

Also, the last picture shows that the sidestand is just short of the up position. Not a problem but I'll see what happens when I start to put the lower fairing in place. Perhaps a good idea to get some heat insulation.





 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 13:17
Everything in place:

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 11:12
OK. It is alive and runs smoothly. Now it is time to call the tuner for the run in and tuning session.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 12:55
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

OK. It is alive and runs smoothly. Now it is time to call the tuner for the run in and tuning session.
woo hoo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badapple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 13:55
Nice one let us know how it goes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 15:10
Date is 3.4. So all will be quiet until then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2018 at 10:22
Cool, you're gonna love it
Full Arrows system, 1060 Big Bore, PC5 and Evo Airbox. Bring on the big grin!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 15:49
Dyno time is done. Some 190 kilometers on it and more than one tank of fuel. I dropped the oil and will be looking at it possibly tomorrow. Didn't see any bigger lumps coming out at least.

I will be sending the map to Gabro. As the PCIII had only one fuel map available the tuner plugged only the rear cylinder and did the adjustements based on that. So whatever differences there are between the cylinders they should still exist as I understand it. Not optimal, I know.

Anyway, how much is much?

This tune got me up to 130 rear wheel horse power and 105 Nm rear wheel torque. That is 13% and 7% hike respevtively from the standard engine I have on the floor (115 & 97). This is with 6% displacment increase, heads and timing. Calculated engine power is 140. However, I am still left wanting a bit more or is it me having unrealistic goals? (or most tunes here very optimistic figures).

There is, however, one glitch that was seen with 100% throttle between ~8700 and 9200 rpm. A strange dip in power and then getting the momentum back up again. Getting that sorted would make a difference.

Please, see the graphs & video.

100 % throttle


80% & 100% throttle overlay. With 80% there is no issue. Rear wheel power up to 124 and running smoothly (blue line in this graph).


And the run. In this you cannot here it but once I was able to hear it and the tuner also said he felt it was not going for a short while in that rpm spot:


 What could it be?
Ignition issues? (change coils etc.)
A mistake in ignition timing map? (by the way. The timing was set to PIN 16 OFF position at one point to make a change with less advance with full throttle. Maybe it evened things out a little or it was in my head)
Something else?
It is nothing?

As for how much is much there is another way to look at things. With roughly 65% throttle the bike produces what it used to do....


 Ideas, opinions, taking the piss, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 13:49
OK. Results from Saturday. I'll do a write up here and post the pictures then:

1: When I went to the dyno I had done nothing to the bike. We ran a baseline with the map achieved the last time. Bow both cylinders were measured and tuned.
2: The AFR in the front cylinder was off.
3: During the 100% throttle runs the bike coughed sometimes very hard at 9000 rpm.
4: We got around that by changing Iridium plugs and step by step map changes. The tuner fiddlet the map step by step starting from before the problem point and was able to push it further and further until the bike went through it OK.
5: I reckon there is still 2-5 ponies above 9000 rpm as the front cylinder goes very rich at the coughing point, which the bike now passes without coughing. The commander could not adjust the AFR.
6: Your speculation about the issue in the front cylinder. I have mine and I have googled parts already but I will keep quiet until I have some input from you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 13:49
Baseline vs. what was achieved:



What was achieved vs. the cough.



What was achieved vs. standard engine on the same dyno

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 20:03
what velocity stacks are you runnng if they are gen2 tuono change them to rsvr then change them to Stefanie double stacks 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 21:29
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

what velocity stacks are you runnng if they are gen2 tuono change them to rsvr then change them to Stefanie double stacks 

Tuono stacks. Not very high on the priority list at the moment but for sure a possible fine tuning option once the front cylinder afr drop is solved. Bike is 100% rideable now. Thoughts are on the injectors. I made a question about those on the gen2 section on af1 forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 22:28
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

what velocity stacks are you runnng if they are gen2 tuono change them to rsvr then change them to Stefanie double stacks 

Tuono stacks. Not very high on the priority list at the moment but for sure a possible fine tuning option once the front cylinder afr drop is solved. Bike is 100% rideable now. Thoughts are on the injectors. I made a question about those on the gen2 section on af1 forum.
yeah I saw that ...I read a bit about tuono stacks not liking to go past 9k ish from Micah just thought that may effect it


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 14:16
OK.

Final tune done. 138/112 is the result. The shorter stacks worked wonders. Fuelling was fiddled in the front cylinder but not so much in the rear so the new injectors did something.

However, the hick up is still there. Now it has moved so close to the limiter that it works like a soft limiter. Additionally, we did 4th and 6th gear runs where the bike ran just fine to the limiter, so the hick up was only present on 5th gear. WTF!?

Anyway, I'll load test the bike on the road when I find a quiet piece of straight road to see what it does.

20% power hike with 6 % capacity increase. Sounds about right for these tunes, right? Anyway, it has been pleasure.

Dyno graphs.

Now vs. standard (same type of Z8 rear tyre, same chains and sprockets so very comparable results)


Now vs. the last time


5th gear run


6th gear run

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diablo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 14:46
Good news. Glad you're about there with it now.

Just looking at your pics. The front downpipe you say was shortened in 2 places? I'm modding my gen 1 Arrow system and have the gen2 4 bolt flanges that will sleeve into the downpipes, held with the quick release springs like yours. I notice the angle of the front flange as well. I haven't mocked anything up in place yet. If you have any advice about that, it would be welcome.

I also have a gen2 system, that's been modified by Gabro, just in case as a plan B (he said the Arrow system too rare to mod, but was in the process of modding an Evo6 for gen1/gen2 engine swap!).

But the weight difference between the two, tells me I have to use my Arrow system, or find a gen 2 Arrow system and modify the rear downpipe to clear the rear shock.

Interested to hear what it's like on the road now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 15:45
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

OK.

Final tune done. 138/112 is the result. The shorter stacks worked wonders. Fuelling was fiddled in the front cylinder but not so much in the rear so the new injectors did something.

However, the hick up is still there. Now it has moved so close to the limiter that it works like a soft limiter. Additionally, we did 4th and 6th gear runs where the bike ran just fine to the limiter, so the hick up was only present on 5th gear. WTF!?

Anyway, I'll load test the bike on the road when I find a quiet piece of straight road to see what it does.

20% power hike with 6 % capacity increase. Sounds about right for these tunes, right? Anyway, it has been pleasure.

Dyno graphs.

Now vs. standard (same type of Z8 rear tyre, same chains and sprockets so very comparable results)


Now vs. the last time


5th gear run


6th gear run

Hi JMH, great build,  also loved reading your detailed progression to the end.
I used Tuono stacks on my 05 factory,  and it lost the top end dramatically,  but I use Stefano's daul carbon stacks although they look tall it has no trouble hitting the Rev limiter.  He does a shorter lower one,  which I wanted to try but I will wait now till I do my big Bore as I might use different size throttle bodies .
138 hp is great result, and you and your friend done well ,I hope you are pleased with it.Now you can enjoy your work riding itClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 01:28
Originally posted by Diablo Diablo wrote:

Good news. Glad you're about there with it now.

Just looking at your pics. The front downpipe you say was shortened in 2 places? I'm modding my gen 1 Arrow system and have the gen2 4 bolt flanges that will sleeve into the downpipes, held with the quick release springs like yours. I notice the angle of the front flange as well. I haven't mocked anything up in place yet. If you have any advice about that, it would be welcome.

I also have a gen2 system, that's been modified by Gabro, just in case as a plan B (he said the Arrow system too rare to mod, but was in the process of modding an Evo6 for gen1/gen2 engine swap!).

But the weight difference between the two, tells me I have to use my Arrow system, or find a gen 2 Arrow system and modify the rear downpipe to clear the rear shock.

Interested to hear what it's like on the road now.
 
 
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REAR FLANGE
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FRONT FLANGE
Rides, Black 2001 Mille R/RR 1102 BB Track Bike, 2 Black Suzuki 1998 TL 1000S's
       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 06:06
Originally posted by Diablo Diablo wrote:

Good news. Glad you're about there with it now.

Just looking at your pics. The front downpipe you say was shortened in 2 places? I'm modding my gen 1 Arrow system and have the gen2 4 bolt flanges that will sleeve into the downpipes, held with the quick release springs like yours. I notice the angle of the front flange as well. I haven't mocked anything up in place yet. If you have any advice about that, it would be welcome.

I also have a gen2 system, that's been modified by Gabro, just in case as a plan B (he said the Arrow system too rare to mod, but was in the process of modding an Evo6 for gen1/gen2 engine swap!).

But the weight difference between the two, tells me I have to use my Arrow system, or find a gen 2 Arrow system and modify the rear downpipe to clear the rear shock.

Interested to hear what it's like on the road now.
 
Road test will commence next weekend. I am just putting the plastics back.
 
As for more details about the exhaust it is hard to say as the cutting and welding was done by a friend of mine. He just explained to me how tight the fitment for the front downpipe was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badapple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 13:41
Great work and excellent results you should be very pleased. Really enjoyed following this thread thanks for all the detailed posts ive learnt a lot reading your progressThumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 17:16
^
Cheers. Having a detailed description about the progress served many purposes:
 
1: This was the very first engine I have joined opening, so writing everything down helped to clear my thoughts and trouble shoot issues on different forums (the story exists also in Finnish)
2: It is a great diary for what has been done and why. I do have a standard engine lying on the floor, so maybe one day 1103 cc with ported Gen2 heads?
3: Hopefully it works as a catalyst for all of you thinking about this job, either having it done or DIY.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 08:24
Nice numbers about the same as my 1060 (138bhp / 88ft/lb)

A great write-up too, now get out and enjoy rolling that throttle back for the first time, big-bore RSV's are soooo addictive.
Full Arrows system, 1060 Big Bore, PC5 and Evo Airbox. Bring on the big grin!
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