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JMH's 1060 Big Bore project

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 16:28
^
I was under the impression that around 110/110 the clearance is well on the safe side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 16:39
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Question is that what does this do?

Hi, yes to achieve that timing, you will have to do that. You can get cam wheels from AF1 already slotted or do it yourself. I would go for that 110/114 or even 115 it would give you more bhp than torque.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 17:13
The ones I have are slotted.

In case I can get the front the same I think I will stick to this and see what I can get. Then, if needed, I can try to improve.

Back to piston valve clearance.

Hope I do not sound blunt. Your input is much appreciated.

Btw. Measured the TSS clutch stack lift to 0,7-0,8 mm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 19:31
The slipper will be fine, mine only 8.87.
You are well in the tolerances, also you are going to enjoy it very much, it is probably the best mod and mine as quite a few.
About the timing 108/112, 106/109 or 110/ 114. I would persevere and try to get to wanted.
Wishing you great success and happy new year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 20:12
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

The slipper will be fine, mine only 8.87.
You are well in the tolerances, also you are going to enjoy it very much, it is probably the best mod and mine as quite a few.
About the timing 108/112, 106/109 or 110/ 114. I would persevere and try to get to wanted.
Wishing you great success and happy new year.


Same to you.

About timing ( a giggly thing). I remember maybe Gabro and some Swedish dudes trying 110/110. Could be wrong. Also fishing out info from them and will get the actual crank degrees with 1 mm lift the next time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 07:49
110/110 is for Kent cams and is what Kent recommend. The duration especially on the APR 03 which is full race is very long as would be the overlap so explains their timing as them Swedes run them Kent cams also 1127 big bores. The Kent cams that were for sale were APR 02 so are very close in duration to my four inlets, and my inlets have more lift than the Kent exhaust. So undecided whether I will buy them. If I had pressed ones I would but they are billet so even stronger than my forged ones.
I have decided to go 1127 now if Spoonvalley will make another kit. They stopped production because a lack of interest. But Joakim said he will consider it. But there's going to added expense as I would have to run an Ignijet or a Motec also bigger injectors maybe four including showers, but I will probably not use the showers just bigger ones to replace the oem ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 09:24
Another thing you may want to consider, on my Yoshi motor where we also slotted the cam wheels, we packed the slots with a machined piece of metal especially if you end up with quite a gap, with a washer to cover the slot. Probably not necessary but it's just extra security.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2018 at 22:31
OK. Timing done. We remeasured the rear before we got on with the front. I'll summarize here the results with a question before going into more details with pictures. The rear dictated our goal with the front as we had adjusted the cams as advanced in the slots as we could and we were "lucky" to get the same in the front but with as retarded cam positions as possible in the slots. Tells you something about how those sprockets leave the factory.

REAR:
Intake opens BTDC: 15.5
Intake closes ABDC: 61.5

Exhaust opens BBDC: 56
Exhaust closes ATDC: 17


32.5 degrees overlap & 113/110 (rounded up from 109.5). Durations 257/253

FRONT:
Intake opens BTDC: 16
Intake closes ABDC: 62

Exhaust opens BBDC: 56.5
Exhaus closes ATDC: 15

Overlap 31 & 113/111 (rounded up from 110.75). Durations 258/ 252 (rounded up from 251.5)

The questions:

What do you reckon about the overlap figures and especially about the a bit silly intake center lobe. It is now full five degrees later than "stock" set up and three degrees later than the targeted 110. Less overlap for sure but what else is going to happen theoretically as the intake works further away from TDC?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 16:27
^
The above sums up the results. Funny duration times by the way but we measured three times each cam getting the result within 0.5 degrees and then the fourth time after tightening everything up with Loctite. We'll see. Now that I got the hang of it there is always the possibility to improve. For instance during valve clerance setting.

Some pics and a short story.

The general set up of the timing device. The degree wheel is tightened between two nuts and spacers so that you can move it with force. TDCs were checked. Front cylinder was spot on the mark and rear 0.5-1.0 degree off. So as previously stated by many builders those timing marks are spot on.



This indicator does not move with wind



The manual chain tightener on top of the original one. Hand tightened.



Markings on front cylinder exhaust



Rear marks



Rear exhaust marking. Let us see if it stays there.




As the TSS does not need the vacuum I took out the center piece of the new clutch diaphragm and the spacers as well as the nut was left out. In the pics you can see the center piece taken out and the old diaphragm.





There it is now. Ready to go into the frame, after which I have the pipes done. That should be quite simple when I have the Gen2 headers and a full Akra Gen1 2-2 system. This will take place mid/ end of February. I am taking a short pause with this.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 16:39
Good work, looking forward to your review when it's running, which should be soon.It was nice to follow the build, well done
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 17:03
^
Well. I talked to the dyno guy today and the best for me would be to have it done on a Saturday. Well, some Saturdays are not possible for him as he travels the WorldSSP circus together with Kallio Racing and I have my schedule to fit in too. Dyno room run in plus tuning could go all the way up to mid April.
 
However, I will keep posting about the engine change and pipe work a little as this thread is hopefully a "turn on" to someone tentative on similar ideas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 17:13
good news on completing the build ...bet you cant wait to see how it performs


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 17:32
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:


good news on completing the build ...bet you cant wait to see how it performs

 
I will be terror-stricken to push the ignition the first time after the oil circuit has been bled.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 16:16
JMH , normally people use washers and longer bolts on the cam sprockets .


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 20:22
Some do. Three bolts will do the job. I will take a look under the rear cover after the dyno run. Front cannot move unless the engine runs backwards
 
Edit: Normally cam gears have only two bolts. A fair point though. If there was a gear to be concerned it would be the rear exhaust where you have the balancer gear on top.
 
Btw. Has anyone ditched the upper balancer? Looks a bit useless to me.
 
Second edit: A little bit of searching and the blancer should stay now and in the future. A bad idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2018 at 08:39




Went back to the TBs. It turned out that the threads on the throttle mechanism (green) for the idle control knob on the right hand side of the engine are different on the 2004 TBs. Thought it was going to be a quick change to swap the mechanisms. NOT. Those cross headed screws (three altogether, you can see two of them on the bigger TB on the right) holding the mechanism to the TB are:

A) made out of cheese
B) some japanese JIS-type cross heads
C) stuck like sh*t to a blanket

During this weekend I'll get some better tools to get them out and I'll be getting better screws as replacement as well.

The experience of my friends from similar screws in Japanese carburators is the same I found out later. They have always ended up drilling them and changing the screws.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raimo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2018 at 19:58
Had exactly the same problem with mine. Those screws must be fitted with tons of loctite from the factory. Did you try to heating them up carefully?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 07:01
Raimo. We will have a mini torch, a better drill, left handed drill bits etc. next weekend. We got one screw out, one is chewn to bits and one left untouched.
 
For the damaged one I would offer a left handed drill bit first. Heat & torque simultaneously.
 
I also got new screws, stainless M5x20 that I cut to length.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 08:18
I remember them being a pain but can’t remember how I dealt with them


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 22:09
You do get some mullered screws out when you have got enough arsenal. The mechanism from the Gen1 TB came out with the impact driver alone. Once we were on it we dropped the engine as well. I remembered I got the sidestand switch bypass to the wiring loom since 2014 or something and took the a bit dubious looking but still working sidestand switch away. Weight saving is important as working at the pinnacle of motorsports in Paimio is no fun and games.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 15:46
Some electrical. The white barrel connector on the tuned engine was fried so I took that piece from the engine removed. While at it I connected the rear coil wires to the front coil as seen in the pictures. I remember this being one trick to avoid ECU fault codes. Is this correct now?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 20:26
The wiring is correct.
 
Pics showing the old connector fried that worked though until the end of the bike's life and the new enhanced version:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2018 at 19:05
f**k. I am so pissed off right now! The bloody thermal sensors. I have completely missed this part and don't recall reading about it anywhere. Gen1 has a sensor on the rear cylinder (to ECU) and front cylinder (to dash). Gen2 has only a sensor on rear cylinder to ECU.

Got the machine in place and realized this. Thought that not a biggie. I just open the plug. Is it bloody tight or what. Looks like the only option is to drop the engine and take out the big tools again, heat, cooling spray, impact driver etc. This sets me back one day on the build and I was hoping to hand over the bike to the guy making the exhaust next week. Now it seems a tad tight. So, take note!

The front cylinder plug.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2018 at 21:08
Victory! I got it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2018 at 21:30
Yay!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badapple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2018 at 23:29
Well done that man
I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diablo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2018 at 23:37
Woop-woop Thumbs Up

I don't recall reading that anywhere either.
Question everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2018 at 11:53
I thought I had read (And I could well be wrong) that someone fitted a temp sensor to the rad to get the second sensor reading.

But as said I could be wrong
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 08:39

^
For sure you can fit a sensor somewhere but if you take a look at the coolant flow in the system in different temperatures the only hose that has flow all the time is the tight 90 degree bend next to the coolant pump in case you want to fit the sensor to returning coolant. (if I remember correctly)
 
The point is to have sensible readings and a measurement cannot be more accurate than the sample. Hence the heads are a logical point of measurement.
If the reading is taken elsewhere one needs to first understand what is going on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 16:27
Ignition is only a fuel tank and exhaust system away. The tank has the base layer already I was told and I am hoping to get the bike to the exhaust maker this weekend.

One question. I bled the oil circulation without plugs with an external car battery. Now the engine has sucked approximately 1 L oil in. I have poured ~4 L in and the oil level in the tank is slightly below the middle of min/max marks.

Would you consider the system bled?

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