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JMH's 1060 Big Bore project

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Diablo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diablo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 12:11
Great thread buddy, lots of info Thumbs Up

I've got to do the cam sensor as well. I'm going to need a spare gen 1 cam cover. Shame I just bought a couple of extra gen 2 ones.

Though my BB engine's already built, it's gen 2 motor into gen 1, so little bit of extra work/prep to put it in is all really. 

Keep the updates coming Thumbs Up




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2017 at 19:26
Oh hell... somehow I thought I needed 8 bolts. Now the cost has become half after the realization I need 4. No biggie.

Happy days.
 
And cheers Diablo.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 19:58
I'll make a bigger update in a couple of weeks time but for the time being I know I need new crank and balance shaft bushings. Bugger. My mate could not see the color code on them so measurement is needed on the crank shaft or is the practice so that they are the same code as conrod bearings?

Speaking of which, I doubt they need replacing as well once we take a peek at those. I doubt they have survived if the other bushings are grinning copper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 19:59
The positive was that the shafts looked OK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 13:44
Hi, this is the correct order for the TSS slipper
Fibre first then metal then fibre then metal then metal then alternate to the end with one metal missing.
They don't make that clear in the instructions.
It means that the last plate which is in contact with the pressure plate is a fibre. Also you leave one steel plate out.
If you don't have the stack height measurements, I could look them up for you.
You may want to put a Surflex plate kit to take the extra power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 14:56
^
All info on the slipper is welcome. For now I was thinking about using the old plates as they all looked good. You think they will slip?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 14:57
The setup also means the stack height is smaller by one metal plate thickness. There is no compensation.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 16:32
Hi, you could give it a go with the oem plates as it not a big job to replace. I was going to put a Surflex kit in preparation for a future 1103 big Bore running four cast one piece cams but I had exceeded and my budget for that time so I put some Ferodo friction plates and roughed up the steels.
About 70 quid.
The stack height measurements is the difference between the empty basket and an assembled clutch, measuring with a depth gauge, the difference you must try to achieve is 0.6mm to 1.2mm and 1.2 being optimum.
Even with new friction plates the best I could achieve was 0.9, but it's fine with that with just about the right amount of slip and only slips just when you think it might lock, so engine braking is still optimum. I must say it brilliant bit of kit, transforms the bike.
The little riding I did get in which wasn't much with the slipper, I couldn't praise it enough, even managed to back in one time when using it hard, definitely increases confidence.
I have the instructions for the slipper, but because the translation they are not consise so got in touch with Yoyodyne who in turn got in touch with TSS to get it sorted.
You will have to put two steels together like I said to achieve the correct order as the previous owner explained aswell and confirmed by Tss. If you do need any further help just ask.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 16:39
Should have explained that better, assemble the clutch with pressure plate only and no other plates and measure the depth from the face of the pressure plate to the Base of the basket.
It's done through one of the holes in the pressure plate, then do it with the plates in.
The difference should be between 0.6mm to 1.2 mm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 16:58
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Should have explained that better, assemble the clutch with pressure plate only and no other plates and measure the depth from the face of the pressure plate to the Base of the basket.
It's done through one of the holes in the pressure plate, then do it with the plates in.
The difference should be between 0.6mm to 1.2 mm.
 
Got it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 17:48
What piston to valve clearances are you running on your build, exhaust and inlet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 18:14
^
Dont' know actually. What does it become with the Aprilia Performance 1060 pistons and gaskets? I suppose someone has actually measured. The heads are standard Gen2 heads.
 
It should be well in the safe side in any case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 18:15
The heads are measured for straightness but I believe they should be straight or need very minute touches at maximum. No decking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 21:26
The parts & cost list on the first post has been updated and as you may see not much will be left from the original engine.

The conrod bolts, cylinder and cylinder head guide pins have arrived as well as the gasket for the case halves. A new(ish) gearbox and clutch basket are on their way from Tash and Griff just finalised the piston ring gapping. So. let us take a look at what has been going on recently:

Here's Griff with a new shiny part.



As you may know splitting the cases require complete dissasembly of both stator and clutch side as some of the crank case bolts are behind the starter gears and the flywheel. The flyhweel does come of with muscles and heat if your extractor does not fit your impact wrench.



After that it will take some patience and in this case four hands to get the cases split. Voilá!





At this point we started to endure some pain as you know if you have read above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 21:26
Yes, yes, there are some marks in the cases but they are not bad. Some polish and it'll be as good as new. The engine has run in funny positions or maybe it is something else that have caused the crank to very very gently touch the cases.

Anyway, the balancer and crank bearings were mullered but happily the conrod bearings were as good as new and the crank was shiny in the right bits. The sad thing is that no color code marking was left inside the crank cases. We need to get the bearing housings on the case halves measured in order to get the correct bearing size. No biggie for a professional with the right tools. I could not do it with my eyes.



As said, new conrod bolts have landed. While you split the cases you end up replacing some shaft seals. Namely clutch rod, gear selector shaft and secondary drive shaft. OEM ones would have set me off by ~90 € but a nearby bearings shop had the correct ones. Well, the parts list say for the secondary drive shaft to have 30x47x7,5 but 30x47x7 will do just as fine.

The newish gearbox and clutch basket are from a ~2000 mile 06 Gen2 bike. The gearbox is the closed ratio one and I made some acceleration curves with the drive ratios for Gen1 & Gen2. When you look at the clutch pictures you can see the three screws holding together the basket, gear and the shock springs and their plates. The clutch that came out had two of those broken once and as I had written before now one of the end plates on one of the shock springs was cracked. I lost faith on that part.





Some acceleration curves. (bad quality, sorry)

Old:

New:


Ratios in numbers:

New: Old:
1,935 1,935 Primary
2,267 2,500 1
1,632 1,750 2
1,300 1,368 3
1,091 1,090 4
0,960 0,956 5
0,885 0,851 6
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 21:28
What else....

Well, the oil pump gears will be renewed. The manual says to change them every time you dissasemble them. I cannot see anything wrong with them and I suppose the manual writer has not had in mind that a 70 tkm engine will been butchered three times and thinks that once there is a true reason to open things it is time to change the plastic gears.

Anyway, the gear behind the clutch sees daylight for the third time and the driven gear for the second time and they are OIL PUMP gears. I'll get some new ones.

Gabro mentioned earlier about the soft touch on the heads in seat transit area. I was a bit lost with this instruction but the person doing the heads was on the same page and he'll check this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 07:52
don't think many of us have seen that much inside the rotax lump so keep the pics coming its all good Thumbs Up


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 14:02
Still no editing rights so cannot put this to the opening post.
 
Cost update:
 
Acquired:
Gen 2 Heads
Gen 2 TB
57 mm intake funnels
Gen 2 down pipes
Edwards airbox lower half
Adapters to the jets
PCIII
TSS slipper clutch
JSPerformance silicone hoses & clips
Valve stem seals, cutch cover gasket, generator cover gasket
Divot pins
Crank case gasket
Con rod bolts
Clutch rod, gear and secondary drive shaft seals
06 Gen2 clutch basket and compelete gearbox
Aprilia Performance 1060 BB kit

3 270,98 €

To be acquired:
Bushings for crank and balancer shaft
Gabro chip
Adjustable cam gears
Pipe welding
Work on the heads & crank case halves
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 16:27
How do I edit posts?
Unless you are a Forum Moderator or an Administrator you can only edit your own posts and only if the forum administrator has created the relevant rights for you to do so. When you edit your posts depending on the forum setup, it will display the username, time, and date of when the post was edited at the bottom of the post.
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think you need to contact admin


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 17:02
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

How do I edit posts?
Unless you are a Forum Moderator or an Administrator you can only edit your own posts and only if the forum administrator has created the relevant rights for you to do so. When you edit your posts depending on the forum setup, it will display the username, time, and date of when the post was edited at the bottom of the post.
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think you need to contact admin
 
I thought one got the rights after 100 posts. I was just being an internet rebellious and furious by reminding everyone about my human rights being oppressed untill I get to that number.... (giggly thing).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 17:05
On a serious note I just get a tiny bit annoyed when I see clear thinking, spelling or grammar errors in my posts. Like above (much giggly thing)
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LOLLOLLOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 20:30
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Hi, this is the correct order for the TSS slipper
Fibre first then metal then fibre then metal then metal then alternate to the end with one metal missing.
They don't make that clear in the instructions.
It means that the last plate which is in contact with the pressure plate is a fibre. Also you leave one steel plate out.
If you don't have the stack height measurements, I could look them up for you.
You may want to put a Surflex plate kit to take the extra power.
 
Does this mean that the steel plate left out is the bottom one with the marking?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2017 at 19:45
Short update:

Both shafts should get yellow bearings. Actually, the bearing housing diameters are sligthly above than what given in the manual. So, once the yellow bearings are installed we will measure the diameter of the bearing housings and the crankshaft so that we can calculate the gap. I have lost a little faith to the manual...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2017 at 19:46
Originally posted by JMH JMH wrote:

Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Hi, this is the correct order for the TSS slipper
Fibre first then metal then fibre then metal then metal then alternate to the end with one metal missing.
They don't make that clear in the instructions.
It means that the last plate which is in contact with the pressure plate is a fibre. Also you leave one steel plate out.
If you don't have the stack height measurements, I could look them up for you.
You may want to put a Surflex plate kit to take the extra power.
 
Does this mean that the steel plate left out is the bottom one with the marking?
 
Hello!?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 02:55
Hi, you can leave the one with the notch out it doesn't matter, the steels differ in thickness a little so depending on if you are trying to make the stack thicker or thinner will determine which one you leave out.
I noticed you bought a new clutch housing gasket, if the old is OK I would cut that one, I used a small pair of scissors, which ever one you use you are going to have to cut it into a normal gasket as you no longer need the Diaphragm part of the gasket I also removed the fixing nut and washer at the end of the clutch push rod.
Don't forget to rough up the steels before putting them back in to stop the clutch sliping.
If you got to sets of clutch plates you could pick from both sets to get close to the optimum height.
Apparently with the Surflex kit you get different thickness plates by .5 of mm so it would have been easier.
As long as you are in the tolerances .6 to 1.2 you should be fine.
I bought the new Ferodo frictions to make the stack height bigger thinking that the the oem ones were worn, but it only made .1 mm of a difference. Maybe the oem were fatter when new, like I said I manage to achieve 0.9 and it was perfect.
You may want to use stronger springs in yours because of the extra power, I will when I go 1103.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 03:17

In the first picture you can see the clutch fitted, you just have to trim the
gasket / Diaphragm to the casing.
In the second pic you can see the clutch vaccum hose has been blanked off where the two Jubilee clips are. Just use a metal dowel or a part of a bolt inside the pipe.
I would give the clutch cover a good clean inside as now it will have oil running in it because the Diaphragm has been removed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 07:43
Thanks!
 
Will be reflecting to this once the engine starts to go together. Order on bearings is made so we wait for them. Some little fiddling will take place end of next week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dog78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 21:56
Hi JMH, what sort of work are you doing to the heads,are you doing any porting or any multi angle valve seat cuts.
Are the cams you using, pressed ones or the one piece which are 06 onwards.
Also when you say adapters for jets, do mean the plugs for the injectors. I am always interested in individual builds and how people go about it.
That's quite a bit of money for the bottom end rebuild. I may look for a low mileage engine than buy one with high miles and build the bottom end. Good luck with your build, it sounds very promising.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 07:10
Originally posted by dog78 dog78 wrote:

Hi JMH, what sort of work are you doing to the heads,are you doing any porting or any multi angle valve seat cuts.
Are the cams you using, pressed ones or the one piece which are 06 onwards.
Also when you say adapters for jets, do mean the plugs for the injectors. I am always interested in individual builds and how people go about it.
That's quite a bit of money for the bottom end rebuild. I may look for a low mileage engine than buy one with high miles and build the bottom end. Good luck with your build, it sounds very promising.
 
 
 
Gabro adviced that a "soft touch" in seat transit area is enough. That is the aluminum cast just above the seats. We will look into to this and maybe some other little fiddle.
 
Yes, I mean the plugs for the injectors. As a matter of fact I am looking into this today.
 
The cams are before 06 so I check if some security can be welded onto them. If not, we'll leave them be.
 
You are correct about a low mileage engine. I just happened to have mine lying around in the garage corner and needed to find some use to it.
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