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Got me bigbore kit now

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NickyBoy1984 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickyBoy1984 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 22:35
Fingers and toes crossed for ya dude!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 11:59
Heres one for you boys out there - Compression ratios!!  I posted this on AF1 as well, hence the strange format.

Right I've done some maths based on what I know of stock and what I know of bigger parts: Assumptions based on clearance of 0.1mm, gasket thickness at 0.0018 in (0.047mm) bore and stroke is known and 11.8 compression ratio for stock engine. Unknowns are the head (chamber) volume...so I worked out an assumption value based on the comp ratio.

Assuming 11.8 for a stock, I calculate the increase in CC from 998 to 1103 I will get a new compression of 12.9. Assumptions again in the piston face having the same volume in the valve cutouts, the head is unchanged and gasket thickness is the same for both stock and bigger bore.

I also calculate that to return the compression back down to 11.8 I will have to remove approx 9.7cc from the head, to increase the head volume.
A thicker gasket isn't enough, nor is a thicker base gasket, which would increase my clearance, which would degrade combustion.

My question is this:

What compression ration is it OK to run with after the bigbore upgrade? Does it have to go back to 11.8, or can this rise slightly? If it can rise, whats the optimum comp ration with valve timing set to 107/109 (I believe the tuners angle of choice on cam timing) and I still want to use stock fuel at 95-98 ron....no race fuel/rocket crap.

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kiwi_rsvr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 12:08
Not exactly 1103 but
 
>>First question - there seem to be a few 1060 kits available... is there a refrence for what pistons give what compression ratios?

Most 1060 kits are flat top pistons. Going from 97mm to 100mm raises the compression about 0.6 to 12.88 to 1, based on a 0.018" head gasket, 0.015" deck height, and 38cc combustion chamber

>>Second - The Aprilia rods seem awefully heavy, though I understand very strong. Does anybody have any experience replacing the rods with something lighter?

Yes, I used Carrillo rods, much lighter than stock. I had the crank, rods, pistons balanced by Falicon Crankshafts. They did a marvelous job. Smoother than stock.

>>Third - Cams. I understand there is a common swap of an exhaust cam to the intake (perhaps from another model Aprilia). Would anybody be so kind as to share the trick? What of cam timing?

You might get stronger pull on top with intakes cams used as exhaust cams,(more lift, more overlap), but will kill your torque and midrange. Use stock 2007+ cams.

>>Fourth - compression ratio. How high do I go? I understand the KWS bikes were running really high, on Sonoco GTX. I'd prefer not to run race gas, but if that's what's needed... How high of a compression ratio can I safely run with 93 octane pump gas? I'd say 13.0 to with 93 octane pump gas.

>>What can I safely run with 110 leaded? I'd say 13.6 to 1

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 12:28

It's a complicated scenario and I'm not sure you will get a definitive answer. An Rc8r for example runs 13.5 >1 so bigger figures are possible but things like the construction strength come into play as the rsv motor was never probably designed to run those pressures.

I think I mentioned it before but the Rsv runs a pretty high piston speed and I know a few who experimented with tuning options ran into some problems with ring flutter and blow by from over pressure issues. A slower piston speed might handle a higher overall comp ratio than high speed in theory.

I know Griff has had an 1127 Rsv in the doors that had such bad blow by that it pressurised the crankcase and forced the oil out of the system. Whether that was poor components or over pressure I am not sure.

Not heard of changing cams other than people using the cast lobe instead of the tacked lobe versions nor lighter rods being used other than in the SP motor but that is short stroke to allow for a higher rev ceiling. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidrsurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 13:17
I'm not so sure its a problem, in days gone by 10:1 was considered high. But look at some of the shonky combustion chamber shapes with hot spots they had, detonation was the limiting factor even if you could find 5* petrol & timing retarded until they lost power!.
 
Modern combustion chamber shape & manufacturing is much better & we now run much higher compresion ratios on lower octane rating fuel with no problem.
 
Interesting question though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 14:34

Doing some digging came across Spoon valleys finding on comp ratio for their 1127 in conjunction with a tuners input and they found the motors were safe to 13.2.1 with decent octane gas and 12.2.1 if not using high octane gas. They adjust it entirely by base Gasket alone

They ran Carrillo rods just for strength due to higher power combined with their other mods but had to have the crank rebalanced due to the lower rod weight so kind of making work for yourself on that route.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 15:32
Must of been pretty thick base gaskets!! I put 1 mm of base in my calc to get ratio down to 12.2...but then the clearance goes up to 1.1mm which makes for a huge squish area.....I need to work the maths a bit more, clear out assumptions with facts. I'm going to fill the head, see how much fluid it takes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 18:33
Measured it and found something interesting.

Head vol is about 36 mls, piston stock valve cutouts about 4 ml.

When I lined the head to a gasket, then to the piston, I found the head combustion area overlapped the piston in a couple of places...got me thinking that there would be a blow by forced onto the top ring at the ignition point....true enough, the piston crown shows such evidence in 2 places.

I wonder how much efficiency is lost just to that???

With a bigger piston, it'll easily cover the whole combustion area by default. I only noticed as I wanted to know how much head metal to remove and where from to reduce compression. I'm toying with the idea of taking a bit out the head and putting a thicker gasket on...will have a chat with boys at work to see if they can CNC me a few aluminium gaskets of various thicknesses.

I'm really getting into this now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 12:03
OK, maths done. Static calculated compression of stock engine is 12.49:1
Long winded,but took into account volume of bore, head, piston cut outs, piston gap to first ring, gasket thickness and piston to head clearance.

Calculated that to get compression down from new bore: 13.67:1 I would need to remove 4.44cc from the head combustion area, or add 0.548mm to the base gasket. The latter would add that to the clearance between piston face and head to 0.648mm, which is just massive and spreads the combustion area from the best kidney stones to the whole piston face....hugely inefficient as flame propagation from centre would be affected.

Perhaps a balance is needed: 2cc from head and 0.2mm base gasket with clearance at 0.3mm

When I get the bits back and do a build, I'll finally be able to measure clearance...which I have assumed for now to be 0.1mm, including 0.046mm for the head gasket.

Incident, I calculated total cc increase from stock bore to new bore is 52.81cc which equals 10.57%. Adding this to 36cc for combustion volume and 6cc for piston volume (valve cutouts) equals a nice 4.44cc...which means head gasket volume and piston gap to first ring is neglegable.

Any thought on clearance from head to piston gap???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 12:13
From a post i saw Micah make on af1 when someone asked about squish, he said that most Rotax motors he found had about 0.8 clearance as measured by a solder test. They ran ok up to about 1 mm but the tighter tolerance gave a crisper motor.
 
Someone i came across on there with a big bore had 1.2mm (track rider) and seemed happy with the bike, so if you genuinly have 0.6 i don't see it as a problem based on what he said.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 12:22
Good info, thanks spoonz. With clearance set to 0.8mm, compression figures now change to 11.27 for stock and 12.2 for bigger bore. At that I can't be concerned. I can't reduce clearance unless I deck the heads a bit...I can't make the base gasket thinner..either. At least the maths take away the worry. It would be nice to get that squish down though, but then I would have to worry about valve to piston clearance. I won't worry about it now. Another thing learnt for today!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 14:12
Still curious as to why the combustion chamber has overlapped the piston edge allowing the bang immediate access to the top ring on the stock bore/piston. I don't think this is correct, maybe an oversight in design??? Maybe another variation that makes so many engines deliver different power and responses??? I'll take some pictures and it will make sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidrsurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 14:39
Crikey Taps - you will end up an engine encyclopedia!
 
I doubt it would make any difference to the top ring, given that the swept volume is relatively small pressure would be equal across the whole volume & in truth even if the cylinder head precisely matched the bore diameter it would still not cloak the ring. I suspect the only way of being assured of a prefect match would be with a wills type sealing ring in a recessed head instead of a traditional head gasket.
 
I wonder if it was some way of Aprilia future proofing against WSB rules giving them opportunity to increase bore / reduce stroke but still have the stock head/combustion chamber profile & squish.
 
Dunno - somebody clever will be along soon!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 15:04
I have heard of other bikes and even cars with the same scenario so i don't think it's unique to the rsv by any means. Can only think it's to allow for bore changes in a future update or oversize pistons as we did in our ap50 days etc after caning the arse of the bike for a few years.
 
Can think of no performance reason why you would expose the ring or even the top of the cylinder wall if the overlap is big enough. A % of your bang would be in effect pushing down on an imoveable object which makes no logic to me.

Maybe if the difference in combustion efficiency is small enough it saves a stack of money in later developments or part sharing with another variation on the motor (Buell Maybe) for very little loss performance wise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidrsurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 15:17
Just seen the post about the SP for sale elsewhere. Short stroke = larger bore! I would put my own inheritance on that matching the standard combustion chamber diameter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 15:28
Just been looking it up Taps and the practice is called Crevice volume. It seems to be common practice from what i can see to use the area outside of the piston crown and down to the ring as part of the cumbustion chamber area. It typically increases the volume by about 1cc for a 4 inch piston and has to be included in your calculations for 100% accuracy.
 
There is a but. That is 90% of the fuel in a crevice area remains unburnt so gets wasted. A reduction of about 5-10% of potential for each 500cc they reckon. There are some theories that it is done deliberatly as the unburnt fuel has a cooling affect which may be plausible to a point i guess.

Never heard of it until now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidrsurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 15:42
Or cause bore wash so they sell more rings!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 15:51
Originally posted by davidrsurfer davidrsurfer wrote:

Or cause bore wash so they sell more rings!
 
ooohh you cynic you.
 
I guess if true it means at least something on Sabre's bike gets washed. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 17:49
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

Just been looking it up Taps and the practice is called Crevice volume. It seems to be common practice from what i can see to use the area outside of the piston crown and down to the ring as part of the cumbustion chamber area. It typically increases the volume by about 1cc for a 4 inch piston and has to be included in your calculations for 100% accuracy.
 
There is a but. That is 90% of the fuel in a crevice area remains unburnt so gets wasted. A reduction of about 5-10% of potential for each 500cc they reckon. There are some theories that it is done deliberatly as the unburnt fuel has a cooling affect which may be plausible to a point i guess.

Never heard of it until now.


There is some merit in that unburnt fuel cooling theory as around the top of the bores and combustion chambers is where cooling is compromised. Water in the water jacket in that area actually turns to steam and causes cavitation and of course steam has little or no heat transfer ability.

I've been looking at the Evans waterless coolant that many top racing teams use and wondering whether or not to try it.
http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/

http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/technical/ktm-bike-conversion/57



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 18:28
funny you mention waterless coolant as we were talking about that today at work. Our bikes run very hot at times when we tour Spain and we considered this stuff.
 
Saw Ed China use in an old triumph stag on wheeler dealers to good effect. expensive stuff though, I think he said £90 for a cars worth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 19:13
Something else to consider then I guess. The bigger bore will close that gap, so cooling could be compromised a little....perhaps running the waterless coolant could be a good mitigation....there is another process I was looking at and that deshrouding the valve at the edge. I could do this, take out a couple of cc in the process and allow the combustion process to work as before. Unburnt fuel would just be an efficiency thing in the end...with a cooling side effect. Yet more food for thought!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 19:32
Originally posted by tapmyhed tapmyhed wrote:



Perhaps a balance is needed: 2cc from head and 0.2mm base gasket with clearance at 0.3mm

Any thought on clearance from head to piston gap???


Mate,I would think 0.3mm is too close for squish, by the time everything expands when hot and the piston WILL rock as it changes direction,factor in the rod/crank clearance and allow a bit for rod stretch and by the time you have a thin coating of carbon on both faces you'll likely have contact.

I've run up against this many times in the past with 2 strokes when upping the CR.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 23:21
Good advice again for sure. I think I'll leave it. Will have a better idea after first build though...when I know all the clearances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 08:16
wow some serious calculations there Tap'    ...i can see why people just go down the tried and tested 1060 drop in conversion with no other stuff added ha ha
.
makes that spoon valley racing 1127 conversion all the more admirable


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 08:40
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

funny you mention waterless coolant as we were talking about that today at work. Our bikes run very hot at times when we tour Spain and we considered this stuff.
 
Saw Ed China use in an old triumph stag on wheeler dealers to good effect. expensive stuff though, I think he said £90 for a cars worth.


You're right it is expensive and you have to use the Prep fluid first. But it is a 'for life' treatment and can even drained and be re-used.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 09:38
Originally posted by legend88 legend88 wrote:

drained and be re-used.



i feel like that sometimesConfused


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 11:33
Me too......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steelman_2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2014 at 14:22
Originally posted by kiwi_rsvr kiwi_rsvr wrote:

 


>>Second - The Aprilia rods seem awefully heavy, though I understand very strong. Does anybody have any experience replacing the rods with something lighter?

Yes, I used Carrillo rods, much lighter than stock. I had the crank, rods, pistons balanced by Falicon Crankshafts. They did a marvelous job. Smoother than stock.




I'm planning to do an big bore engine too, what were the prices for Camillo rods/ balancing mentioned items ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2014 at 00:34
Sounds interesting....still nothing going on here though. Update soon I hope.....
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