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Gen1 Tuono clutch on its way out?

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Ian03 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 May 2020 at 18:33
Hi all,

When I pull the clutch lever in at idle on my Tuono taking in any slack to get the biting point I am feeling a lot of vibration in the lever, which you can also see. This occurs at idle and I can feel the vibration when when riding and going thro the gears.
It does take a lot of pressure to pull in the lever (more than normal) compared to my mates 2003 Tuono which has an Obreon clutch slave fitted.

Question: If I fit an Oberon clutch slave will this remove the vibration or is my clutch on its way out anyways. fyi my Tuono has done 30,500miles so assuming clutch is original 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 18:46
Yes, you will get vibration and pulsing through the lever, also yes, the action will be (slightly) easier with the Oberon.
This comes with an in built potential disadvantage namely shorter piston stroke.

If it were me I'd just recon the OE slave and check or replace your one way valve but your choice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 19:05
Thanks for the quick reply. Oberon slave seal at £90ish is expensive and a search found some people didn't seem to find that much of a difference in the lever pressure.

I have had the Tuono some 6 years now and hadn't noticed the vibrations before, so hopefully changing the slave valve seal will stop it (fingers crossed). I was just worried that the stiffness in the lever and vibes wasn't a precursor to the clutch failing. So first thing to do is that I will change the valve seal and I'll let you know how I get on.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 19:38
Well, an Oberon aftermarket slave complete is £90 ish whereas I think the oem slave rubbers were about £20 when I last looked. You would be well advised to get both the piston seal and the grease seal that fits in the end and holds grease captive around the pushrod.
Also, as I said previously I'd check the action of the one way valve in the vacuum line as well while you're investigating.
I run short levers with oem masters and slaves and I don't notice the effort needed any more.  And I do have a performance aftermarket slave ready to go on, just haven't seen the need so far.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 20:31
If it’s a new phenomenon and feels like it’s beyond general vibes especially if it sounds a bit more chattery it could be your clutch bearing.  You will get some slight pulsing at idle caused by the slipper clutch and that’s normal.  

Sometimes when the bearing is failing it will quite aggressively spin the clutch pushrod and you will feel it spinning within the slave. You could pop the slave for a look for galling and put a bit of grease on the shaft If it’s dry and have a look while it’s running at what the shaft is doing. A bit of gentle rotation is normal which is just drag from the oil film. 

Never have a Oberon slave but had an mpl one and it was noticeably lighter but whether that’s worth £90 is a personal thing. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 20:41
Out of curiosity did it release OK? Or was there any drag?
Can't decide whether to just change my fluid or swap in my re con mpl

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 20:59
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

Out of curiosity did it release OK? Or was there any drag?
Can't decide whether to just change my fluid or swap in my re con mpl


From memory it very slightly changed the bite point but not by much. I just adjusted it a bit at the m/c. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2020 at 00:29
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

Sometimes when the bearing is failing it will quite aggressively spin the clutch pushrod and you will feel it spinning within the slave. You could pop the slave for a look for galling and put a bit of grease on the shaft If it’s dry and have a look while it’s running at what the shaft is doing. A bit of gentle rotation is normal which is just drag from the oil film. 

Cheers Spoonz, I'll take a look thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 17:46
Took the clutch slave off today. No leaking.
Started the bike up to check if the clutch push rod was rotating. It is not rotating at all, but you can see it visibly vibrating /pulsing. If it is the bearing is it the bearing one on the clutch thrust plate?. 

Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

I'd check the action of the one way valve in the vacuum line as well while you're investigating. 

Are you thinking that the vibration could be vacuum pulses due to a dodgy vacuum valve?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 18:05
Yes clutch rod bearing.  Pic below is what happens when it fails completely 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 18:09
That was my thinking yes,but that is a definite rhythmical pulsing and yours seems to have got worse so probably not that.

It's just that little one way bugger is a Rotax weak point and Aprilia money maker that most of us fall prey too sooner or later.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 18:09
oooh that aint good, not going to ride the T now, Cheer Spoonz for the confirmation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 18:12
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

That was my thinking yes,but that is a definite rhythmical pulsing and yours seems to have got worse so probably not that.

It's just that little one way bugger is a Rotax weak point and Aprilia money maker that most of us fall prey too sooner or later.


Cheers IanG for your reponse
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 18:16
Thumbs Up
Sorry it wasn't any help in your case,should have realised earlier Embarrassed

My brain is only just starting to clear all the anesthetic and pain meds of the last week



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 18:36
IanG, At least I know more about my Tuono now, which is a good thing. So thanks for that Thumbs Up

"anesthetic and pain meds of the last week".... what you been up too?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 18:53
Heart disease so just had a triple arterial bypass op

Had the op breakfast time last weds,arrived home yesterday evening so now on a recovery program 

At the moment this means I say "it hurts a bit" and that means I can relax in front of the PC until I decide to try and move around a bit to salve my conscience about being lazy Wink

The bikes are on hold for a few months now until I'm recovered enough to be safe working
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2020 at 19:21
Bjesus... IanG Slowly slowly does it will you, stay safe and get well soon, we (read 'I') need your knowledge 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 22:21
Success, I replaced my clutch thrust plate and I now have a clutch lever with no more vibes.
The clutch thrust plate bearing was definately on its way out. Turning the thrust rod by hand you could feel the bearing was knackered.
Spoonz... at least my bearing wasn't as bad as in your picture 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 23:34
Originally posted by Ian03 Ian03 wrote:

Success, I replaced my clutch thrust plate and I now have a clutch lever with no more vibes.
The clutch thrust plate bearing was definately on its way out. Turning the thrust rod by hand you could feel the bearing was knackered.
Spoonz... at least my bearing wasn't as bad as in your picture 

It was a good job you picked up on it now rather than be stuck somewhere when it failed completely.  What’s the bikes mileage out of interest ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2020 at 11:53
Bikes done 30,500miles.

I replaced the clutch fluid as well and the amount of pressure on the lever is still the same. I have had an operation on my left hand in October 2019, because of Dupuytrens contracture and have scarring on my palm and up my middle finger, which is giving me grief after a ride out. So bar changing the clutch slave to an oberon clutch slave to see if the pressure is reduced, would changing the clutch friction plates make much difference.  Any advice appreciated
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2020 at 12:53
Originally posted by Ian03 Ian03 wrote:

Bikes done 30,500miles.

I replaced the clutch fluid as well and the amount of pressure on the lever is still the same. I have had an operation on my left hand in October 2019, because of Dupuytrens contracture and have scarring on my palm and up my middle finger, which is giving me grief after a ride out. So bar changing the clutch slave to an oberon clutch slave to see if the pressure is reduced, would changing the clutch friction plates make much difference.  Any advice appreciated

No plates won’t make a difference to pull effort. If you want it lighter I would go for an mpl or factory pro slave as they are lighter than the Oberon. If it has an axial M/C, going radial helps a tiny bit as the m/c is at right angles to the lever. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2020 at 15:37
A lot more work but you could also mock up a cable clutch mech instead then you could design in whatever mechanical advantage you wanted. As I said, a lot of work but doable if really necessary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 06:06
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

No plates won’t make a difference to pull effort. If you want it lighter I would go for an mpl or factory pro slave as they are lighter than the Oberon. If it has an axial M/C, going radial helps a tiny bit as the m/c is at right angles to the lever. 


Thanks for the information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian03 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 06:10
Originally posted by legend88 legend88 wrote:

A lot more work but you could also mock up a cable clutch mech instead then you could design in whatever mechanical advantage you wanted. As I said, a lot of work but doable if really necessary.
  
Doable 'Yes', but too much hard work for me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 10:18
Fitted Oberon on mine due to replacement seal failing after a year on original, can’t say it makes any difference to lightening the operation tho, seems the same (09 Tuo)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 11:08
I can remember comparing my stocker to Adzed's after he'd had an Oberon fitted and I can say without doubt there was a world of difference.

Very noticeably easier on the hand,it felt like half the springs were missing by comparison,which surprised me as that's not a feature they advertise.

Factory or MPL do say they alter the pressure/travel ratio by about 30% I think it was.

I don't have a problem with OE but I do have a recon MPL that I may swap in down the road a bit to try out for myself
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 15:22
I've got an MPL and when I fitted it I actually tested the force with a gauge (I'm a bit anal like that and like to know I'm getting what I paid for) and as you suggest Ian 30% reduction in effort is about spot on what I measured.  Thumbs Up     Mmm  'About' and 'Spot on', maybe don't correlate too well LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 15:35
Two factories 

Oberan fitted on one has a Brembo RCS master and the MPL one has Accossato radial master fitted. 
The Accossato/MPL combo is noticeably lighter 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 15:52
I think the only possible downside to the MPL other than it being a design prone to leaks is the fact you trade effort for distance traveled.

You may have to use all the lever travel on the bar to free the plates for a smooth action whereas before it might not have been necessary.

I still have an urge to mod the MPL piston to take a thrust bearing though as I think that could be the best of all possible outcomes.

Major friction reducer with the other benefit of much lower fluid operating temps and potentially keeping the fluid clear for much longer as well as much reduced effort and better looks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 16:57
Any additional lever travel wasn't appreciably noticeable Ian and from memory I didn't even need to adjust the  actuation rod. No leaks yet so far either - six years


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