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Fuelling/ECU problems...

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nirsvck View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Jun 2008 at 00:11

Hi sorry this is so long but the solution may lie in the detail…

Factory '04, Scorpion c/f cans, Map 2, 8k miles, owned from new.

Bike was fine, then I fitted a new PCIII. Ran fine for 15 or so miles until properly warm then flat spots appeared around 4 - 5k revs then got progressively worse until it stalled when opening throttle. I let the bike cool down and problem disappeared until warm again (not overheating BTW). Removed PC but problem remained - fine when cool, stalling when warm & had to limp it home with less than 4k revs & no more than 5% throttle. Wondered if PC had caused the problem and it is back with Dynojet as they offered to test it for me to be sure - awaiting response. No warning lights.

 
Dealer spent £280 of labour time checking everything with Axione & couldn> '> t find anything wrong and said problem pointed to a faulty ECU because when they fitted an ECU off an '07 it still worked when hot.

So with their recommendation I bought ECU off ebay from an RSV '04 and fitted it. Now have a new (opposite) problem…  Engine rough below 4k and choke not working properly - very difficult to keep from stalling when cold at tick over, stalls when throttle snapped open/dangerous on low speed corners - smells of fuel and backfiring more so guessing it's running too rich . However get it above 4k and it's sweet to 11k aside from the backfiring with throttle closed. Haven't had chance to run it long enough to see if I still have a problem when it gets properly warm. No warning lights. Not sure what map it's on (shouldn't cause that kind of problem tho - run Map 1 before with Scorpion cans with no probs). Anyway back to dealer tomorrow to check.

Other info:- TPS wire was spliced (damaged) when fitted PC but still within correct voltage range when cold. Checking when hot is harder because bike may be cooling down enough before lifting the tank etc. or could it be the fuel pump?

 
Time is an issue - booked to go to France in less than a month & parts take ages to come down!  Any pointers for the dealer much appreciated.
 
Many thanks all

 P.s. had a few problems with this bike - it's akin to a fit bird that's high maintenance...  but what can you do?!

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Spoonz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2008 at 10:48
original problem sounds a bit like an atmos pressure sensor fault. They don't always throw a code.
 
although the dash will complain unplug it when the bike is warm and see if the problem improves dramatically. no sensor reading will generally make the bike run better than a faulty reading. it's under the seat area left side
 
Failing that maybe vac leaks around the throttle body pipes.
The dealer should be seeing a vac reading of 60 on the axone at idle. if it's much lower something is amiss.
 
don't rule out a map issue with the latest ecu and check it's latest map and variant 2 and tb's synced before doing too much else.


Edited by Spoonz - 25 Jun 2008 at 10:50
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nirsvck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nirsvck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2008 at 18:04

Hi Spoonz

 

Grrrrr atmos pressure sensor… that’s gone before and the bike was with the dealer for 6 months… yes 6 months off the road before Aprilia and the dealer figured out it was the problem! (dealer has changed ownership since then).

 

Well the dealer sorted the worst of the problems regarding the ‘new’ ECU. Idle is now just rough as opposed to stalling and there is only a momentary stutter at 3.5k revs. It's also much flatter than before up to 6k and the 1st & 2nd power bands aren’t what they were. It also backfires a lot more with throttle closed or using engine braking down hill & stinks of fuel when you stop – but it’s at least ride worthy & I put all this to a mapping problem… or so I thought….

 

Once properly warm the problems that were associated with the original ‘dud’ ECU returned but this time I could power through the major flat spots & it didn’t stall. So is this a completely separate issue than with the original ECU or is this the same issue & the original ECU is not dud after all?

 

Dealer reckons the ECU I bought off ebay may not be compatible with mine. If it helps my original ECU was No. 664583. The ebay one has a sticker saying 664582 on top of another sticker saying 664581.

 

Anyway it goes back in tomorrow and I will mention what you have said thanks… anymore pointers much appreciated thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 00:17

Out of interest what is your dash voltage with bike at idle ?

can't find those part numbers listed for the ecu 04/05 bikes are listed as 664981 and 6,7,8 as 664536

I suspect the difference is probably only software related.
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nirsvck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nirsvck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 19:03

When you mentioned atmos pressure sensor I thought ithat might be it as I did shove the PC cables past the sensor - thought I may have knocked it. Unfortunately when unplugged with original ecu back in the problem remains so it rules out the sensor.

 
Dealer confirms same issue with new ECU so it's not the ECU that is the problem... great!
 
The 664981 ECU No. you refer to is on both my ECU's - I was referring to another No. further up the white sticker.

 

Bike in shop with tank off when I went to see them so will have to wait until tomorrow to find out voltage at idle. Been given a nice Honda City Fly instead!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nirsvck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2008 at 16:18
Well the bike seems to have miraculously fixed itself and no one knows why. The dealer drained the tank, removed and checked all hoses and the fuel pump - all were fine. Replaced them all and the problem seems to have disappeared!
 
The official line from Aprilia Tech is that the fuel in the tank was getting too hot when low and not atomising properly. Surely though a) that would have happend the first day I rode it out of the dealer b) is potentially a recall issue because that effectively means I have lost my 4 ltr reserve.
 
I reckon I pushed a hose closer to the engine or losened a connection somehow when fitting the PC as that's when the probs started and refitting them all has secured them again.
 
voltage BTW is between 13.4 and 13.8 tick-over when warm.
 
Any thanks for the pointers again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jambo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2008 at 04:05
Ah, saw your bike when I was down there last week. I thought the scorpion cans rang a bell...

Glad to see it got sorted in the end mate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jjay69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2008 at 10:14

Hi NIRSVCK

Can you confirm if your problem has totally cleared now ? I have had almost exactly the same problem on my 05 model, it started while away in Austria, gulp. Luckily they sorted it temporarily and i got back home, but it was a lot less fun waiting for it to start "missing" or stalling again around 4k revs !! Unbelievably it waiting until i was in London to happen again. Dealer couldn't find anything.
 
Happened again yesterday 100 miles from home when the engine was nice n hot. Yours seems to be an exact copy of the problem i'm getting.
 
Any more pointers greatly recieved. Going back to the shop tomorrow and i'd like to give them some solid clues.
 
Ta J
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2008 at 10:24
There is a known problem with some fuel pipes in the tank developing pin holes.
 
Then when the tank level falls below the hole the fuel pressure drops and you get problems. I suspect in changing the fuel hoses they fixed the problem without ever seeing a hole.
 
There are also a few fuel pumps which have caused issues when they get hot. you need to really check the fuel pressure when the bike is in it's fault state if pipes don't fix it.
 
It's also vey easy to partially disconnect the white connector under the seat when you lift the tank. it may look connected but often not fully and you lose fuel pump power intermittently or sometimes completely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jjay69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2008 at 10:35
Thanks Spoonz, looks like i got plenty of trial and error coming up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nirsvck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2008 at 00:13
No unfortunately my problem has come back. Was down in south of France and weather was 35C - was a pain in the arse until I found out how to prevent it - ride fast!
 
I noticed a pattern - it doesn't matter how hot the engine gets as long as the over all temp of the bike is cool. So riding on slow twisties up mountains at an ave speed of say 40mph whatever it was getting hot started causing the engine to stutter at 6k revs getting worse until it gets to about 4k. If I pulled over & let it tick over for a few secs I got a couple of goes all through the rev range until it stutted again - weird. The worse the problem got the more it backfired too.
 
However riding on the Peage or fast winding roads at 60mph + I was able to keep enough airflow through the bike and keep cool whatever it is that is failing with no probs at all. The hotter the day the quicker I had to ride.
 
The problem was worse the emptier the tank got but I don't think the level of fuel makes a difference in terms on volume. I just think that the more fuel you have the longer it takes to heat and therefore the problem takes longer to occur.
 
Spoonz - they didnt change the hoses - just refitted the old ones. I think the fuel pump is nearer the mark. I have noticed the fuel hoses rest on the engine!
 
However - I did take it to a helpful French dealer and he found a loose front HT lead - it still seems slightly loose to me  and I wonder if the connection is somehow being affected when hot?
 
Anyway I got my mate to take the bike back to the UK - it is now with Cresent in Doreset... hopfully their rolling road will help identify the problem whilst the bikes running.


Edited by nirsvck - 13 Aug 2008 at 00:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2008 at 14:12

there is a apparantly a recall coming for fuel hose issues in the tank from some 2005 to 2007 bikes with chinese made pumps and hoses.

Obviously they have covered that with your bike now. I take it your tank is venting ok ? less fuel/more heat more vapour so a venting issue would explain it to an extent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jjay69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2008 at 16:42
Fuel Pump apparently, ££ i'll be happier when i've had it back and fully proved it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jjay69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2008 at 16:45
Fuel pump apparently £££, i'll be a lot happier when i've had it back and fully tested it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nirsvck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2008 at 22:46

Well mine's an '04 so the recall won't cover me.

I think the tank is venting ok - I get a woft of fuel now and then so I guess that's proof? How would I prove it otherwise - keep opening the cap? Overflow works fine as I always find out at petrol stations!
 
Rung Crescent today - they are looking at it tomorrow hopefully. I'll tell them to check the hoses, pump pressure and ht leads when hot. Will the pump run an error code if it was losing presure?
 
There is still the potential for the vaporisation theory which is what my dealer thinks and apparently Aprilia too.
 
Good to hear they've found the problem on yours jjay69


Edited by nirsvck - 13 Aug 2008 at 22:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2008 at 00:22

There is a breather pipe for the tank as well as an overflow which might be worth a check. it usually blocks at the very top so you can visually check it or run a piece of wire down the pipe or even blow through it.

The fuel pump won't throw a code for a drop in pressure unless it's very bad in which case the bike would probably cut out anyway.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2008 at 08:44
tell me guys dos the problem appear when you move the tank or does it just happen anyway???
the reason i ask this is as spoonz has already suggested that MAP may be an issue, a couple of guys have had spilt map sensor pipes ( the very thin pipes opn the left side of the throttle bodies as your sitting on the bike) these pipes with with a spilt would give these symptoms, ive also had the same symptoms with a blocked fuel filter.....on an 04 bike as well!
please stay in touch guys and i hope i'll be able to help !
Cheers
Griff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jambo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2008 at 13:47
Nirsvck, sorry to hear that. Hope it gets sorted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nirsvck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2008 at 22:52
Ahhh interesting fusebox.  I think I know the pipes you mean - the 2 thin ones running into the left lower side of the airbox?  The problem started after I tried to fit a PC so yeah after I lifted the tank.  I did actually remove one of those pipes when removing the PC (the PC plug that goes onto the left injector was being really stubborn coming off so I disconected one to get a better grip of it).  Unfortunately the problem had already started before then and they seemed to be in good condition from memory.  Dealer removed fuel pump but don't know if they checked the filter.
 
Crescent gave me some news I didn't want to hear - an hour on the dyno with engine temp at 100C and the problem didn't appear. FFS!!!  However they had put back the original ECU and fitted the PC again (obviously) before putting it on the dyno.  Could this mean the 2nd hand ECU wasn't 100% compatible and messed with the fueling when it got warm? Just have to wait and see.  I'll check the fuel breather when I pick it up next w/e.  If problem returns will check sensor pipes / fuel filter / fuel hoses.
 
Many thanks


Edited by nirsvck - 14 Aug 2008 at 22:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 09:20
hope this helps keep in touch!
Griff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nirsvck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2008 at 17:09
So got the bike back from Crescent without any problems - bike much improved in terms of smoothness throttle response and performance as you'd expect from a dyno.  Went out yesterday and after about 20 miles problem returns except this time it was more of a flatspot as opposed to being really jerky... could it be that the improved fueling and custom map dampened the problem in some way?  Anyway bike would get to 6k and rather than the 'on off' jerkyness it just stayed at 6k with throttle to the stop almost like a limiter kicked in.
 
Removed the petrol cap and blew through the breather - that is fine.  Lifted the tank and found one of the thin bypass pipes that connect from the LH side under the airbox to the throttle body detatched (probably done when Crescent connected the left injector).  Surely that couldn't have caused the problem though could it?
 
Looks like I'm going to have to take it back to my dealer.  The only issues left I can think of now are:
  1. Faulty fuel pump/blocked filter - shall I just get another one and see?
  2. damaged pipes in the tank
  3. fuel vaporisation issue.

 All other connections/pipes look fine to me.  Going to be a long winter.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jambo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 02:57
At least it's a lot better. Was that your bike down at La Braye on Saturday afternoon? Was down on the beach for a while.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nirsvck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 21:07
It's not really good enough if I wanted to take it away again.
 
Yes twas me - small Jsy  Smile


Edited by nirsvck - 01 Sep 2008 at 21:08
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