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Swinging arm pins |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Posted: 29 Jul 2020 at 19:59 |
Came to check my dogbone bearings expecting them to need some attention although they were good when I last checked them at the same time I replaced the bearings and pin in the swing arm a couple of years back?? ( I hardly use the bike so it only does about 500 miles a year) Anyway,the bone bearings were well greased and sealed but the shocker was the new (ish) s/arm bearing,it was almost locked in place although well greased and sealed. Bearings directly after pulling the pin Pin after wiping the grease off These are the now more usual caged roller sets bought as a kit with new pin,my thoughts are inadequate heat treatment as the pin is pretty soft Has anyone else noticed premature wear on these items? Judging by the indentations the rollers seem to be shorter than full compliment and thus carrying more load Thoughts.. |
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wigginsjp
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: calne Status: Offline Points: 3460 |
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Ian I’ve seen that all too regularly as it goes
I only see it on the caged bearings even in a good regularly serviced condition. The small fiddly needle Aprilia ones I’ve dealt with, provided they were greased and serviced the same are never that bad. I may be wrong but more fine needle bearings will distribute the load better than less but twice the size ones. Of course caged is easier to maintain but I’ve seen it on every caged bearing set of greased over the years |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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That was my thinking as well but as these have less than 1500 dry road miles and probably nearer 1000 and they are still well greased that seems almost not fit for purpose to my way of thinking. Running a swiss file across the edge chamfer tells me the pin isn't hardened and tempered,in fact looking at the end machining marks it looks just like it's been drilled and parted off a length of silver steel. I doubt that could be so but looks sure like it. I'll have a chat with Griff when I order spares and see what his expectations are. |
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426hemi
Premium Member owner of the big bore! Joined: 30 Mar 2012 Location: cannock Status: Offline Points: 5676 |
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I think a problem with swingarm and linkage bearings is they only move in a very small arc, never a full rotation so once a small indentation happens it just starts to magnify it.
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wigginsjp
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: calne Status: Offline Points: 3460 |
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I’ve a race torx dog bone and I’m sure they are titanium pins under caged bearings
Will have a look at that as it’s not been on long and is most likely making its way onto the Tuono shortly. Will see how it’s wear is. But those pins are soft. I’ve done the same with a file and questioned its suitability
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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You might find in the tech specs that the load bearing capability of the bearings used is not sufficient. Simply because of load distribution on each needle. Lube will only reduce abrasion, that almost looks like the needles have pressed into the pin, the ends of the groove look burred over which doesn’t happen from normal surface wear Generally.
I doubt any form or lube would have made the difference. |
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Stevex
Moto GP Alien Joined: 05 Jul 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1333 |
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That is terrible Ian, that pin doesn't look as though it's made from the correct material or had any form of hardening. Where did you get them from?
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Now there's the problem,that's why I wondered if mine was unusual because this was a bearing set I got from Griff. If this was normal wear I doubt he'd sell them so I'm thinking perhaps this was a rogue pin somehow I'm due to put in an order shortly so I'll try and speak to him then The pic off the bearings themselves looks odd probably due to the flash,but they were well lubricated with waterproof grease and you can see there's more than enough of it. Couldn't believe it when the pin was reluctant to pull out |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Having thought about this overnight I've decided to pull those caged bearings and replace with new genuine Aprilia spec full compliment loose rollers and a genuine pin which hopefully will be hardened and tempered. While I have the bearings out I'll look into fitting a grease nipple as well I do wonder if some sort of solid bush would be better in that location than a needle roller ?
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tfcoulson
Moto2 racer Joined: 23 Oct 2016 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 160 |
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Looks exactly like mine, I'm sure I bought mine off AP a few years ago when the previous had snapped. I have probably put in 1000 miles or less in the last few years too as its spent most of its time in bits. Was thinking maybe the shock was a bit seized too but dont know. Are the needle bearings not the oem ones then?
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Mine aren't certainly,the OE spec Aprilia parts are full complement loose needle rollers that fall out when you remove the pin if not held in place by grease. These are an Aprilia only part,the more common replacements are caged rollers where there are probably half the number of rollers captive in the cage. I'm guessing these caged units are up to the job but I question whether the pins supplied with them are. Certainly the spot loading from each of the fewer needles will have a higher surface loading and the pin that came with my bearings was nowhere near the hardness required to accept this. In fact given my 50 years as a precision engineer working with all sorts of materials from plastics through exotic alloys I'd say there was no heat treatment at all and the pin was just a short length of untreated high carbon silver steel or similar, which quite patently wasn't able to take the surface loading and the needles just pressed themselves into the pin. The sets in the dogbone which are probably original to the bike are still shiny and unmarked compared with hardly used s/arm unit that's completely knackered. Perhaps an OEM pin would work fine with the caged rollers but I'm not prepared to try,while I have the arm out I'll fit a grease nipple and then a new OE spec bearing complete for peace of mind. Sometimes perhaps the designers really did get things right first time round. |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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They are Titanium and also 2mm larger diameter than stock. I wonder if they've surface hardened them,if not I don't give much for their long term future in spite of their lightness. I've now replaced the newish caged roller bearings with full complement type as I wasn't prepared to risk a new genuine hardened pin ( AP8146518 ) as they aren't that easy to get hold of atm. Fitting tool Bearing Fitting Seals Setting the depth for the seals to -3.5mm Now I have new full complement bearings,better seals,PTFE side washers and a new genuine hardened pin nicely greased and fed by a grease nipple to make life easier in future. I forgot I was going to reverse the seals and can't be bothered to hook them out and turn them. I also didn't bother fitting nipples to the dogbone as there was no reason to remove the bearings as they're still clean,greased and as new. I'll do that whenever the bearings need changing
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wigginsjp
Premium Member Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: calne Status: Offline Points: 3460 |
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Good work and nice pics
Yeah I forgot they are indeed larger pins on the racetorx. I had to order new Teflon washers to suit Looking forward to this looking mint and finished. Decided on wheels yet Ian?
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Yes and no I left Andy's Oz in spite of the price being right and the wheels themselves being in not bad nick,after thinking hard I decided that the drive/carriage costs would be a deal breaker for me atm,also I have exactly the same wheels on my unused Mille and I also already have disc spacers if needed so if I was desperate for lighter wheels (I'm really NOT) then I'd just swap them over. In the meantime I found a powdercoater just down the road to do my oz lookalikes for £75 a wheel which I was tempted by until I spoke to a mate who told me the guy's a cowboy who usually does engineering work rather than custom stuff so not going there now. My mate has a spray gun and does small bits himself so the current thinking is I may just buy some paint and refurb the crusty bits and then a quick blow over the whole wheel followed by 2K clear coat. Failing that it's send them off to Kent for a proper custom powdercoat job but to be honest I don't think they're worth spending that amount on,the same thinking that led me to just clean the exhaust system and refit it rather go down the ceramic coating route. In the back of my mind is still the thought I may very well walk away from the bike next year as I've never really gelled with it. Which is another reason to do the wheels original colour and not go down the Gixxer route with white |
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tfcoulson
Moto2 racer Joined: 23 Oct 2016 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 160 |
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Pictures are always good! I'm guessing these are the bearings you used? Where about's did you pick up the pins from? I need to do at least one of mine...
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Yup,that's the bearings although I didn't get them from HB ( wish I did as they're cheaper but mine came next day ) Just as a warning to others I first ordered genuine Aprilia stock bearings from Ultimate Parts and they sent me the replacement caged roller units I already had! When I phoned them they said they only supply genuine parts and Aprilia would buy from whatever stockist was convenient at the time. The bearings came in an UP parts bag though not an AP part marked genuine bag so I kept them as spares and re ordered the full complement Koyo or FAG from https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p188638/Major-Brand-HK1812V-Drawn-Cup-Open-End-Type-Full-Complement-Needle-Roller-Bearing-18x24x12mm/product_info.html The pins are Aprilia genuine spares and out of stock at Ultimate Parts my usual source,so I used as they had it listed,took a long time to arrive though but at least it was a genuine part and nicely hardened and ground unlike the soft piece of crap that came with the caged roller kit. |
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tfcoulson
Moto2 racer Joined: 23 Oct 2016 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 160 |
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Ah brilliant, thanks for all the info.
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MikeyR
Moto3 racer Joined: 12 May 2020 Location: Melksham Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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Interesting pic of the pin. Just done my Daytona 675 sus bearings, all good apart from the lower shock linkage. Plenty of grease in there , bearing rollers fine but the pin looks identical to your pitted pin with only a few degrees of rotation available. Another thing to add to the ever growing list of regular check items!
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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I'd guess it was an aftermarket pin and not a genuine part. With the genuine OE Aprilia fit pins I've seen seized and rusty bearings with destroyed rollers but never seen a pitted pin,stained and slightly worn yes,but indented no. I always thought it was an Aprilia specific part the loose roller bearing but it turns out be just as easy to get that type as the lesser populated caged type,it's the pin that's the difficult to get as that is an Aprilia part |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Just noticed that those bearings from Henderson claim to actually retain all the rollers due to returns on the lips Far better than OE or even the ones I bought and they are also quite a bit cheaper as well as being a premium brand. Nice find, this should be added to the stickies I feel
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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That is a good find. Seems like best of both worlds to me. Cheap too. I found with a good amount of grease the needles weren't as fiddly as I thought they'd be. But still better if they're held captive. Will have a look later if they do them in the right size for the linkage.
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Owen
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Mine were the same Koyo number but they had a nylon sleeve keeping the needles in place which I left in place till I pushed the new pin in so I don't know if mine had captive needles or not. I certainly paid more for my bearings though from Simply Bearings although I think that was still cheaper than an Aprilia boxed part. Yeah,grease is the magic ingredient for the OE parts to keep the needles where they should be I can't get away from thinking a genuine Aprilia pin is required though whichever type of bearing you use. |
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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What's the difference in surface area going to be? 30-40%? Be surprised if the pins were so close to tolerance that they would fail like that with so little additional force.
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Owen
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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It wouldn't have if it had been hardened and ground,that pin of mine had all the look and surface finish of just a length of Silver Steel which is just a high carbon steel ground to a reasonably precise dia. I bet the pins articulate less than 20 degrees so all the pressure is put onto about 1/4 of the rollers at most so without a properly hardened and tempered pin they'll just sink into the soft untreated ( or badly heat treated) pin. Try a sharp needle file on a genuine pin and it'll just skate over the surface,my pin was soft as f*kc and the file just cut into it. For those not buying into the exotic and keeping the oe spec dogbone the best scenario it seems to me is buy the full complement bearings and seals from your local bearing supplier and order a genuine pin from Aprilia if you need one. Chances are if your bearings haven't rusted up solid the pin will still clean up ok and be fine mated with just a new bearing set. I recently found the pin I took out from the original destroyed bearing and after a few minutes with some scotchbrite it cleaned up good enough to be used again.
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tfcoulson
Moto2 racer Joined: 23 Oct 2016 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 160 |
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I got a full set of the bearings and just one new pin as only one of my pins was gouged out like yours, although the other two do have marks. They had the nylon captive inside which just pushes out when the pins inserted so same as yours Ian. Not sure if they are held in place either...and not sure if I want to start pulling rollers out to check! I was thinking I bought my dogbone plus all the bits for it off of Griff but looking back I might not have bought the pins (I cant tell fully from the emails to be honest). Either way, if I didn't buy them, the pins are original, and cheese, if I did buy it, that means either the pins I was sent weren't OEM or the OEM ones are just hit and miss too. |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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I also can't prove where I got the previous bearing set complete from although I'm 99.9% sure it was AP as they do them as a set rather than separate pieces. I very much doubt that genuine parts would be soft though On my new genuine pin it's possible to tell by the colour in the through hole and also the surface finish on the ground O/D that it's been heat treated even before you give it the file test. The soft pin is obvious just by looking at it it's never seen heat
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andyisavinit
Moto GP Alien Joined: 06 Apr 2015 Location: Bracknell Status: Offline Points: 525 |
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I know this is an old thread....But I just took mine apart to check and re-grease and to my horror mine are exactly the same.
I bought my bearing replacement kit from griff too. About 3 years ago. I don't ride this bike much in the rain so assumed things would be all ok. Not done many miles either. The bearings look good but pins totally shot! Great thread and thanks for the links - I will be purchasing the ones posted. The pins are a bit pricey. All 3 of mine are gone! How have the new pins and bearings that you fitted held up over time? What grease do you recommend? Ive used marine grease before but not convinced by it.
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Andy,I'm ashamed to say the bike these parts were fitted to is still in pieces a couple of years down the line As for grease I used a non branded waterproof type I got from my local oil depot years ago so sorry. no advice there,I would think any heavy duty waterproof grease would be suitable though. Another consideration for me is after fitting the new bearings/seals and grease nipple to the s/arm I then managed to buy a brand new/old stock updated s/arm complete with all bearings still in it's Aprilia plastic wrappings. So I'm now undecided whether or not to use that one instead and if I do could I be bothered to drill and tap it for grease nipple as the bearings are already fitted. A new pristine s/arm would better compliment the newly powder coated wheels than the exhaust scuffed original I suppose. |
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Stevex
Moto GP Alien Joined: 05 Jul 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1333 |
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I saw another example of worn sleeves like those above on a Tuono faceache page recently, so it's still a problem with the after market replacements. I thought about going down the grease nipple route, but this winter I serviced all my linkage bearings by removing the needles and cleaning them, the spacers and the inner races in white spirit before re packing in grease. The bearings are original, 17 years old with approx 20K miles on them and still in good condition. The spacers are marked where the needles sit on them , but I can't feel any indentation with a nail, so they're good to go. I re grease them every year and strip, clean and re pack every other year. I also replaced my dust seals with Viton ones after noticing the oems were starting to wear their rubber lips. I use Castrol High Temp grease which is advertised as a high performance, multi purpose lithium based grease, resistant to water with very good load bearing performance.
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People say I don't know Jack Sh1t; but I do, he lives next door.
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andyisavinit
Moto GP Alien Joined: 06 Apr 2015 Location: Bracknell Status: Offline Points: 525 |
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Well Ian it sounds like you've got the best solution. Get a brand new swing arm and oem bearing kit. Nice! Fresh wheels too. Will surely look beautiful!
Did you ever speak to Griff about his aftermarket bearings. I will call him also and get his take. Seems to be a common ish issue, and I’m a bit annoyed at having to spend again and replace the bearings and now the pins as well after such a low number of miles.
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