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Jolly's air tray |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Posted: 15 May 2020 at 21:40 |
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No disrespect to Jolly, but has anyone else got before/ after dynos on this thing. Thinking about it again after a year. And Jolly, take a look at my adventure with Kent cams and you'll surely understand why I am asking. It would be easy to test, just the spend haha!
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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Hangry
Moto GP Alien Joined: 22 Feb 2018 Location: Cornwall Status: Offline Points: 646 |
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Only one iv seen is on track electrics f/book gen1 before and after dyno.dont know about what engine mods they had tho
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Well, what I am looking into is a comparison of the difference. No matter what mods as long as they are the same in both runs.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Not a single one? Dig in deeper lads!
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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legend88
Premium Member Joined: 18 Aug 2013 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 6598 |
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I asked this about a year ago, nothing came. I don't think even Jolly has before and after comparison runs
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kiwi_rsvr
Premium Member EX Dr Frankie Stein (splitter) Joined: 10 Sep 2008 Location: Hockley, Essex Status: Offline Points: 3391 |
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You may need to ask over on AF1 as well, I've seen many varients over the years, carbon fibre, aluminium, fibreglass etc.
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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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I posted a link a few days ago to Micahs dyno runs comparing an evo air box mod to the stock airbox and comparing third party air filters to oem.
They all made less power, the evo airbox mod by quite a bit ( based on a gen1)
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Paddedcell100
Moto GP Alien Joined: 01 Nov 2015 Location: Northampton Status: Offline Points: 2591 |
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Jolly did get a dyno test done when he made his newer gen 1 version and it showed good results according to the dyno graph.
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Better to have something you don't need than need something you don't have....
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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Hmm. If you look at the afr at the points where the power gains are on the modded air box run, the mixture has gone significantly richer. Hard to see how that happened from adding more air flow alone on a bike with no active manipulation ( lambda, pc3 etc ) ? If it were a run with a modded map to compensate for more air flow it makes more sense but no mention of that. Or the modded air box is actually flowing less air and the bike is benefitting from a richer mix. ( unlikely as the afr is leaner at lower revs on the same run, it either flows more or less, not both) I may be missing something but it asks more questions than it answers to me. |
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Paddedcell100
Moto GP Alien Joined: 01 Nov 2015 Location: Northampton Status: Offline Points: 2591 |
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Honestly, dyno graph workings and minutiae are a bit above my pay gradešš....so I couldnt say anything about the exact workings of that, I just thought it would be handy, and fair to Ian, to post up his own dyno comparison graph.
I remain a bit sceptical about the overall merits of some airbox mods although I do still think a good quality ,properly sealed , increased airbox capacity mod, such as an Ironbite or Edward's, does give you a decent ch8nk of extra midrange and people do report good "seat of the pants" increases from Jollys trays ,which is the real test I suppose...if you fit one, ridevit and are happy with it,then it's a winner, plus it's as much to do with that airbox growl as anything else really isn't it(although I'm getting old now so.i prefer the more subdued sound of a sealed type š“š»š).
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Better to have something you don't need than need something you don't have....
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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They have their merits but only as part of a package. As in you can manipulate the fueling to match more air availability etc. But for a stock bike with maybe a can there is enough evidence to show they do very little if anything as Micah proved. If you think about the mid range gain thatās often claimed for otherwise stock bikes it doesnāt really stack up. Your stock air box isnāt flowing enough air in mid range and gains 10bhp or so from more air but same fuel. Hmm on bikes that are generally lean in the mid range anyway and I just added more air and it got better ? As designs go Jollyās looks far better than the ally ring and rubber seal ( although seal it doesnāt ) versions. So if youāre setup merits a higher air flow you could do a lot worse. And it looks nice |
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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Seen this post over on AF1? https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?349107-03-Mille-Performance-Upgrade-Mod-(questions)&p=4527123&viewfull=1#post4527123 Most talk about airbox mods is usually people guessing more volume is better. Which ignores the fact the air in the airbox is replaced so many times a second there's no way a bigger airbox provides a bigger store of air. Those in the know talk about laminar flow in the airbox. It's all way beyond me but seems more feasible than just chucking out factory designed parts. Jolly's airboxes are the prettiest of all mods I've seen though. I like how the air ducts feed straight in, ignoring the air boot. That should get some extra pressure in there for forced air. But then it's not sealed so all that extra input just flows straight out doesn't it Also, am I reading those charts wrong or does it actually get leaner as expected? Rather than richer as you said Spoons?
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Owen
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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The whole thing came about from the wsb version airbox. Itās on a factory bike which makes oodles of power etc and it got copied.
But that was a higher revving, short stroke, race engine ridden flat out and rebuilt every week. Iām not sure anyone has produced any evidence that there has ever been an airflow restriction on the road bike in stock trim. ( excluding the euro 100bhp versions) Doing so in that era would have no merits for an oem as restricting it doesnāt benefit power or emissions. Fueling is a different story, hence why the Aprilia race cans came with an eeprom. Itās horses for courses I guess and each to their own but Iām not convinced. When I got my first rsv in 2000, I was talked into buying a Leo Vinci carbon can by the dealer when having it serviced. After he test rode it he said, wow thatās awesome now, letās throw it on the dyno for a before and after just for the hell of it as a comparison as itās the first one we have fitted. It made diddly squat power difference but sounded like it gained 500bhp. Such is the power of the placebo effect, he was as surprised as me. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Hmm.... looks like there are no short cuts. Getting more power out of my 1060 would then require increasing compression and decreasing squish (0,1 from both the head and cylinder should be safe) and probably porting too.
Another sneaky idea I got was to try to reshape the useless KENT APR03 inlets so that the closing side would mimic OEM inlets. They are billet so not sure if it can be done..... Bugger
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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To prove your hunch on the inlet cams why not fit the Kent exhaust cam and oem inlet and see what happens. I think Iām right in saying they have been swapped in pairs so far. You could be modding the inlet cam only to find itās not or only part of the problem. You could also answer the airbox question by going to the stock airbox. Be interesting to see how it performs by comparison on a modded engine. Iāll send you the version on my bike if you want to compare. Itās the one ap sell based on an evo I think I realise dyno time costs £££ |
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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Gabro tested a bunch of setups and found the stock can actually did better than an Arrow system. It didn't have the 5k dip and made pretty much the same peak power. That was a full throttle run though and apparently at smaller throttle openings the race cans were more powerful. Still though, to me that just sounds like a progressive throttle really. Because full throttle is where you want most of the power. At smaller throttle openings such as cornering surely you can just open it a little further.. The reason I don't use the stock exhaust is the massive weight really. If I could mod it to be as light as a race can while staying just as quiet as it is and make the same power then I'd be really happy. Still sounds amazing flat out anyway, just sounds different at lower revs to me. Get it beyond noise testing revs and it's no quieter than an open exhaust. JMH, you could try boring it out to 1102 ha
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Owen
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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All my 1060 dyno runs are with stock airbox and OEM paper filter. Dyno time is quite cheap for me and only 30 minutes away. I have only Kent inlets. I paired them with OEM inlets. Double inlets are proven. The power drop came from the kent inlets. They close too late. The fart has escaped by the time the inlet closes and it cannot be adjusted to close earlier due to clearance issues. Hence the cunning idea about an asymmetric cam to enable an early opening but still close pretty much at the same time as the OEM.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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Got ya, I thought you were asking about the jolly airbox as you had one and wanted to check if others had gains with it. Have Kent had any input on this. You would like to think that they ran the scenario. Can you not use a compression tester to see if the inlet is still partially open at the start of the compression stroke ? If you fit a Kent inlet cam to one cylinder and monitor at how many degrees the compression rises and by how much and then change cam to oem etc. If the Kent cam is overlapping you should see the difference.
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Inlets close always ABDC during compression stroke in these things. The question is how late.
Compression testing and such is pointless as I have a dyno run before the change to kents, the kent run, and after changing back again. All with known cam timings. Results donāt lie.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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This is not how I operate, haha!
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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Not sure I get that, I may be missing something though. The timing has a 2 fold effect on the same cam, altering it changes both open and closing times. so is the observed power drop with timing because the valve closed too late or opened too late ? If you alter the timing to earlier is the benefit because it closed earlier or opened earlier. Unless you have variable cams how do you make the distinction when your altering 2 variables. Iām not sure how you determine where that point of failure is on the Kent cam from a dyno run. ? |
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redratbike
Moderator Group The Collector Messiah Joined: 07 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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I asked if the jolly dyno included the arrows exhaust in the before run as if it did it shouldnāt have shown the midrange dip as they have a collector like a modded collector ??? Never got given an answer
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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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OEM inlet: lobe center 113 (also 107,5 tested with the same effect but a tad less difference in top) Kent inlet: lobe center 110. Duration is 16 degrees longer though. It has opened earlier than OEM (both timings) and definitely closed later. These things work very well bottom and mid OEM inlets having lobe centers as low as 103-106 (i.e. opening early). The kents in a 1060 BB with Gen2 heads made same power as a standard engine with 2-2 Akra and a Gabro chip as the only modification between 3000-6000 loosing as much as 10 Nm torque compared to the current state, i.e. 1060 kit, timed cams, gen2 heads, 57 TB etc.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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Iām with you on the power difference between cams , what Iām less unsure about is what you mean by later closing that was the cause of the power loss with the Kent cam. It may just be the way itās worded that makes the difference.
When you talk about late closing being the issue are you meaning the point at which the valve passes lobe center is too late or when it fully closes. Until now Iāve been assuming you meant the latter ( too much duration) but you mentioning lobe center made me think It might be the former which then makes sense. I hate loose ends as you may have gathered |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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I mean the valve is closing too late after the bottom dead center with the kent inlet. Duration is too long. Cannot be adjusted to open and close earlier due to v-p clearance (with 110 lobe center it was 1.9 mm between 5-15 degrees after top dead center. The tightest reading)
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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Ok Iām with you now. I didnāt realise your duration issue was for clearance and so you had limited adjustment. It read to me that no matter how you timed it you got bad power and and clearance only became an issue at extremes of timing. So the idea is to shave a bit off the closing side of the lobe if you can, so you can try earlier timing and see if the changed opening time improves things. Essentially a stage 2.5 cam. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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^
Yeah, one idea. Not now, for sure, but if it still is in one piece after the summer... well, Iāll see about my motivation. Porting and increasing compression is another. The cleverest move would be to leave it alone. Itās solid and working. Edit: 110 is also Kentās recommendation for the APR03
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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