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Lithium Battery |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 17:33 |
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AGAIN!! Just an update on my JMT JTX14H-FP-SI Lithium battery For anyone worried enough to faff about with battery tenders and the added worry of cooking your expensive battery by doing so I can give some reassurance I leave my Gen 2 T for weeks on end unattended and it always starts when the first piston gets to it's firing point. This time was a good test,left just over 8 weeks as I forgot to run the bike up before I left on extended holiday Checked the flying lead with inbuilt led charge indication which was showing 100% charge,switched on and hoped.......... Just like flicking on a light switch,it's that instant. No turning over,no stressing,just instant start So anyone still sitting on the fence,just do it!!! Throw your optimisers in the bin where they belong and join the modern world,you really won't regret it |
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Mr Miller
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2013 Location: Ayrshire Status: Offline Points: 1134 |
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Just one more thing ..do not accuse the delivery man of handing you an empty box ...
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If you find us in a hedge check the bike first please .. I`m free on the NHS...
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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True that,even though I'd been warned,I thought I had an empty box |
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Hangry
Moto GP Alien Joined: 22 Feb 2018 Location: Cornwall Status: Offline Points: 646 |
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yep I even took it into work n they all thought it was an empty box
The things are brilliant
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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I'm gutted I only learned about them shortly after replacing a dying battery. Can't justify dicarding a perfectly good AGM now for a lithium.. Probably last a record time too knowing my luck
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legend88
Premium Member Joined: 18 Aug 2013 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 6597 |
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I here you Ian but I'm still not convinced due to the capacity issue. Maybe I'm just blind or a luddite. If they produced lithium batteries with higher capacities I would be far more likely to take the plunge. Ever since you pointed me to Tayna batteries near you and I got one of their own brand high CCA, AGM jobs mines been absolutely perfect. Three years now and starts first turn as you say even when left without the optimiser for a few weeks. It was on my Optimate over the winter mind as without disconnecting the battery (Or pulling the 30A fuses) the ECU/dash drain will flatten any battery over that time.
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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I think I'd rather have several strong cranks in a battery than a hundred half arsed ones. My old AGM towards the end of it's life struggled to crank the engine over straight off the charger. Of course the replacement sorted it but I know over time those initial cranks will get weaker and weaker. Though on the plus side it should still retain enough capacity to fully knacker the sprag if I wanted to keep pushing the starter. Think this forum has given me an unhealthy paranoia about starting the bike . If I'm not going to ride it for a couple of days I disconnect the cable from the negative battery terminal. I'm also not 100% about whether a 2003 Gen 1 will drain a battery if you don't do the immobiliser sync thing so I tend to avoid the risk and only connect the battery when I ride.
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legend88
Premium Member Joined: 18 Aug 2013 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 6597 |
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Agreed, that's why a high CCA battery is essential but that can come from lithium, AGM or whatever. It's the spec that matters.
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Shakes head sadly. You can take a horse to the water but........................ I used to leave both my SV1000s and my Mille unattended for no longer than 4 weeks before starting them and running them up to temp a couple of times when I still used Lead Acid batteries. The SV was less of an issue as it's centrifugal de-compressors eased starting load,but it did have a Meta alarm fitted. At those intervals I found the SV unable to start once or twice towards the end of my ownership,and a few times the Mille was so sluggish to fire it only started as I released the button. The very fact that a Li-Ion ( a budget one at that ) can have the attached indicator lead showing 100% charge and instantly start the Tuono after 8 weeks surely proves the case? They do say there's nothing as conservative ( small c) as a motorcyclist,I tend to agree,although it's funny how everyone seems to think things like radial calipers and extra injectors are so ' Must have' and yet they ignore probably the biggest single advance in technology. After all,what's the point in having a high tech bike with all the advances if it won't start when you need it ? Take a leap of faith,trust me,you'll never go back to lead acid. Also just changing to a modern battery probably saves more weight than a full set of carbon race bodywork |
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Af1
Moto GP Alien Joined: 29 Dec 2016 Location: Herts Status: Offline Points: 651 |
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you can always fit a bigger amp battery , say 16AH instead of 14AH if thats what worries you ! The lithium batteries are half the size !
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Very true,but the big ones start to get expensive then. Part of the appeal is a tiny,lightweight battery for a reasonable price that does a good job. I seldom ride either of my bikes to keep them charged and they live in a garage without mains power so a lithium that lasts at full power for a couple of months at least is ideal for me. I think I payed less than £120 for the battery,a charger and the flying lead with indicator leds that sits under the rear seat,which for me represents good value for money. It will be another one the same for when I need to resurrect the track bike
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Mr Miller
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2013 Location: Ayrshire Status: Offline Points: 1134 |
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If you find us in a hedge check the bike first please .. I`m free on the NHS...
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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legend88
Premium Member Joined: 18 Aug 2013 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 6597 |
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Yeah, I know. Maybe when the Tayna special fails me. but I'm more than pleased with it given the grief everyone seems to have including me with that Motobatt I was initially so enthusiastic about.
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legend88
Premium Member Joined: 18 Aug 2013 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 6597 |
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Most of them seem to have capacities around the 7Ah which is my concern. I'd be happy with 14Ah if it still had a high CCA. |
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Doesn't work like that with Lithium,those kind of reserves are just not needed. If a Lithium or any other battery doesn't give you an almost instantaneous start then you have others issues more pressing to address. I'm afraid too many people have swallowed the old wives tales regarding batteries and the benefits of trickle chargers. Times move on,I was a little hesitant to go the Lithium route but decided 'what the hell,give it a go' Trust me,there is no need for a half ton lead acid weighing down your bike Perhaps the earth is flat after all . Hmm
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Stevex
Moto GP Alien Joined: 05 Jul 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1333 |
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What about Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries?
Were these available when you fitted the Ion battery? Sounds like the Iron Phosphate offer all the advantages of the Ion without the possible volatility. I'm no expert so this is just a cut and paste: The lithium-iron (LiFePo4) battery has a slight edge over the Li-ion (LiCoO2) battery for safety. This is important because a battery should not get overheated or catch fire in case of overcharging.The lithium-iron battery has superior chemical and thermal stability. A Lithium-iron battery remains cool at room temperature while the Li-ion may suffer thermal runaway and heats up faster under similar charging conditions.LiFePO4 is a nontoxic material, but LiCoO2 is hazardous in nature, so is not considered a safe material. Disposal of Li-ion battery is a big concern for the manufacturer and user. . Interesting and informative info here: https://www.newcastlesys.com/blog/lithium-ion-vs-lithium-iron-batteries |
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People say I don't know Jack Sh1t; but I do, he lives next door.
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Yes,I think all the bike batteries available now are the later type. Those early things were a disaster waiting to happen with the fuse already lit. Nil chance of an unscheduled bonfire I think with a bike battery bought these days. I used Lithium ion as a general term to differentiate between that class and lead acid without going into specs any deeper . JMT guff
FAQ
JMT is the own brand of one of the biggest motorcycle
distributor in Europe. With a HQ in Hamburg, they supply 10,000s of
professional services and racing teams. JMT lithium batteries are the best selling lithium in Europe and therefore they can save on manufacturing and transporting costs. The best and most secure way to charge your lithium battery is
to use a lithium specific charger as they are optimised for your
battery. Yes, definitely. JMT has a wide range of lithium batteries (12V or 6V) to replace any maintenance free, gel or conventional battery. If you can't find the battery you need, just let us know the make, model and year of your motorbike or the old battery model number and we will be happy to assist in finding the best battery for your bike. Yes! All JMT lithium batteries are designed to be a perfect and direct replacement for your old battery. The smallest number reflects to the actual battery heights while the other number(s) are referring to the heights with the spacer(s). With every battery there are two very important specifications
which you need to take into consideration. One of them is the capacity,
the other is the cold cranking amps (CCA). To put it in the simplest
way, capacity reflect how long would it take for your battery to go
flat say when you leave the headlight on (when the engine is not
running), while the CCA is for how much power it generates when
starting the bike. |
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Stevex
Moto GP Alien Joined: 05 Jul 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1333 |
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I replaced 2 of my bikes lead acid batteries last year before thinking about Lithium, and the Tuono's lead acid is still going strong. Going to have to wait a while I guess.
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People say I don't know Jack Sh1t; but I do, he lives next door.
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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What's up with the motobatt? That's what I got as to replace my old yuas a that was too weak to start the bike consistently. The spec and reviews seemed much better than the upgraded yuasa I was looking at and it was about 20% cheaper too from memory. I've had no grief from mine butI've only used it about 18 months.
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Stevex
Moto GP Alien Joined: 05 Jul 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1333 |
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I looked into motobatt but they had a lot of poor reviews. For lead acid you can't fault Yuasa, was cheap too from Halfords with their trade card.
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People say I don't know Jack Sh1t; but I do, he lives next door.
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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Fair enough, we must be looking at different parts of the internet ha. All I'd seen is how the cranking power and reliability blows the Yuasa away. I just had a quick search now and nothing on the front page shows anything negative. Sure there's something out there but it has to be in the minority, unless my internet skills aren't as good as I thought. Was there anything in particular that was bad about them? Just saying I'd like some warning if it's prone to exploding and igniting my balls or something like that.
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Can't remember the exact details but I think quite a few users had them die unexpectedly I seem to recall some comments about 'a bad batch/manufacturing problems etc' Have you done a search on here? I think there were a couple of disgruntled users a while back,but I'll be the first to say the search function on here leaves much to be desired. I was going to buy one but these comments persuaded me to take a punt on lithium and I'm really glad I took that leap of faith. Hopefully your Mottabat will be ok. |
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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I know what you're saying about the search Ian. Going advanced and selecting "all time" and older helps. Great forum for the people on it but not the best technically. I lost an entire thread on here about rearsets for some reason, writing posts on a phone does weird things I've never seen happen on other forums and a mate managed to lose his account and have all history wiped clean converting his premium account back to a regular one. Having said that, the search turned up a couple results about what sounds like motobatt dropping a cell or something over winter. I.e. working great then suddenly not working. So far mine's outlasted the previous Yuasa and was cheaper. With any luck it'll die this winter and I can get a lithium for next year
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Thanks for the tips,I never have much luck with search on here so perhaps I'll have more luck in future. Regarding batteries in general I think it's a bit of a lottery most times. I had the OEM Yuasa in the SV for over 9 years before it died,replacement Yuasa in the Mille lasted about 3 years I think. Car batteries are no better,some last many years some last a couple at best. Given that my JMT didn't cost the earth considering I got a charger at the same time I'm happy as it better suits the way I use ( or not) my bike. Others may not need the extended reserves but given the lack of mains in my garage it's great I can leave them for months and decide to dust one off and know I can guarantee an instant start How long it will last is anyones guess but I'm sold on the concept |
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www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk Looking forward to the next track day |
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budd
Moto GP Alien Joined: 07 Oct 2014 Location: Weast Yorks Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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I have to agree with the plus points of switching to lithium, I to have the JMT HJX14H-FP it's only been on for just over 2 months (probably 1K mls) and so for it's been faultless ( hope I'm not jinxing it ) So for I'm a lithium convert not only was it a reasonable price, it's light ( and I mean bloody light the empty box analogy is absolutely true), the battery can also be mounted in any position so the plan is to relocate it either to the tail piece (once I've decided which I'm going to fit) or into the nose cone ( space permitting).
One potential disadvantage / problem could be recharging a depleted/flat battery, I have bought a dedicated charger and I think while the bike is in regular use ( over the summer) I won't need one but I'm not sure what I'll do if I find I have flat battery, either through lack of use or some mechanical issue. There seems to be conflicting opinion on charging now I know you can't leave them on a trickle the mixed messages are regarding normal charging, some say (TM Top Gear) you need a lithium specific charger, while others state if you don't exceed 14.6v then a regular lead acid charger can be used although it MUST be fully disconnected when charged, ironically modern 'smart' chargers with an automatic "equalisation mode" should not be used, the smart charge process is not suitable for lithium so I think it probably best to use a dedicated charger where possible. Once a lithium battery as been damaged by incorrect charge voltage or as been depleted passed a certain point is will not be recoverable, unlike a lead acid battery you can't "shock it back to life" it will be bricked.. Lithium battery's also suffer decreased performance in colder conditions and may benefit from been warmed up, this doesn't mean getting the heat gun on the battery but making do a little work to 'wake up ' the cells something like putting the lights on a for moment or so before cranking. So it's not all good news but overall I think pros out weigh the cons and given the reasonable prices then lithium is well worth a punt. Just quick note re Motobatt batteries, a good mate of mine recovers broken down bikes ( SOS Motorcycle Recovery) and he told me when he goes to a bike with battery issues it's usually a Motobatt that is fitted, just saying ...
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IanG
Premium Member Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Location: N Wales Status: Offline Points: 10725 |
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Further to possible recovery of a discharged Lithium unit I have read that it's possible if you do it with another battery in parallel ? No idea myself and hopefully I never have to find out but as I always have a 12v battery spare somewhere it could happen Till then given the amount of rain coming down atm I could well be leaving my bike for another 8 weeks before starting it again Hope the garage doesn't get too wet inside
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john mac
Moto2 racer Joined: 23 May 2013 Location: durham Status: Offline Points: 238 |
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hi i have a motobatt in one bike and have been told by a guy with a harley optimates ect bugger them and you need a pulse charger he found this out by experiance im now looking for a battery for the mille sitting on the fence at the minute
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john mac
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legend88
Premium Member Joined: 18 Aug 2013 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 6597 |
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For info, my Motobatt dropped a cell or something. It showed fine on a multimeter over the terminals (Not just on the dash) and showed fully charged on the charger but would not start the engine. However when checking voltage during attempted start it immediately dropped to about 7 volts! This was after just over 12 months from new (It may have been earlier but that's when I started prepping after the winter and found the problem.) I bought the Motobatt due to the excellent specs especially the cranking amps but after mine failed I did find loads of negative info about them on the internet. Maybe it was a bad batch as Ian suggested but I don't think I would risk buying one again. I'm not sure about the need for a special charger as if this were the case they would provide this information with the battery in the way they do with lithium batteries but they don't. Re lithium depletion, this is a serious problem with power tools. They are fine for pro users who use their tools daily (And therefore charge them daily too) but for hobby users, dead batteries are a very common thing. I have a drill and driver combo with two dead lithium batteries after less than one year of non use but my earlier NiMHyd drill still worked after treble the dormant period. Lithium batteries also are prone to explode - just ask Samsung! |
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blacklines
Moto GP Alien Joined: 08 Jan 2018 Location: Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1060 |
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Yeah that sounds like a dropped cell if it loses voltage under load. I bought the Motobatt charger with the battery as it was much cheaper than optimates etc. Think AGM batteries do need AGM specific chargers though (doesn't have to be a Motobatt charger). If your Tanya is also an AGM then it might be worth getting an AGM charger if you don't want it going the same way. I can't remember if they tell you on the box or not. I know naff all about batteries but had read either on eBay or the motobatt website that you need an AGM charger so I got one at the same time as the battery. Think it's the other type of lithium battery that explodes. As far as I'm aware bike batteries use the second type LiFePo? Look at Stevex's post up the page.
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