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JMH's 1060 Big Bore project |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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^
I was under the impression that around 110/110 the clearance is well on the safe side. |
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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dog78
Premium Member Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Location: Winchester UK Status: Offline Points: 1508 |
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Hi, yes to achieve that timing, you will have to do that. You can get cam wheels from AF1 already slotted or do it yourself. I would go for that 110/114 or even 115 it would give you more bhp than torque. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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The ones I have are slotted.
In case I can get the front the same I think I will stick to this and see what I can get. Then, if needed, I can try to improve. Back to piston valve clearance. Hope I do not sound blunt. Your input is much appreciated. Btw. Measured the TSS clutch stack lift to 0,7-0,8 mm. |
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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dog78
Premium Member Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Location: Winchester UK Status: Offline Points: 1508 |
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The slipper will be fine, mine only 8.87.
You are well in the tolerances, also you are going to enjoy it very much, it is probably the best mod and mine as quite a few. About the timing 108/112, 106/109 or 110/ 114. I would persevere and try to get to wanted. Wishing you great success and happy new year. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Same to you. About timing ( a giggly thing). I remember maybe Gabro and some Swedish dudes trying 110/110. Could be wrong. Also fishing out info from them and will get the actual crank degrees with 1 mm lift the next time. |
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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dog78
Premium Member Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Location: Winchester UK Status: Offline Points: 1508 |
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110/110 is for Kent cams and is what Kent recommend. The duration especially on the APR 03 which is full race is very long as would be the overlap so explains their timing as them Swedes run them Kent cams also 1127 big bores. The Kent cams that were for sale were APR 02 so are very close in duration to my four inlets, and my inlets have more lift than the Kent exhaust. So undecided whether I will buy them. If I had pressed ones I would but they are billet so even stronger than my forged ones.
I have decided to go 1127 now if Spoonvalley will make another kit. They stopped production because a lack of interest. But Joakim said he will consider it. But there's going to added expense as I would have to run an Ignijet or a Motec also bigger injectors maybe four including showers, but I will probably not use the showers just bigger ones to replace the oem ones. |
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dog78
Premium Member Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Location: Winchester UK Status: Offline Points: 1508 |
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Another thing you may want to consider, on my Yoshi motor where we also slotted the cam wheels, we packed the slots with a machined piece of metal especially if you end up with quite a gap, with a washer to cover the slot. Probably not necessary but it's just extra security.
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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OK. Timing done. We remeasured the rear before we got on with the front. I'll summarize here the results with a question before going into more details with pictures. The rear dictated our goal with the front as we had adjusted the cams as advanced in the slots as we could and we were "lucky" to get the same in the front but with as retarded cam positions as possible in the slots. Tells you something about how those sprockets leave the factory.
REAR: Intake opens BTDC: 15.5 Intake closes ABDC: 61.5 Exhaust opens BBDC: 56 Exhaust closes ATDC: 17 32.5 degrees overlap & 113/110 (rounded up from 109.5). Durations 257/253 FRONT: Intake opens BTDC: 16 Intake closes ABDC: 62 Exhaust opens BBDC: 56.5 Exhaus closes ATDC: 15 Overlap 31 & 113/111 (rounded up from 110.75). Durations 258/ 252 (rounded up from 251.5) The questions: What do you reckon about the overlap figures and especially about the a bit silly intake center lobe. It is now full five degrees later than "stock" set up and three degrees later than the targeted 110. Less overlap for sure but what else is going to happen theoretically as the intake works further away from TDC? |
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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^
The above sums up the results. Funny duration times by the way but we measured three times each cam getting the result within 0.5 degrees and then the fourth time after tightening everything up with Loctite. We'll see. Now that I got the hang of it there is always the possibility to improve. For instance during valve clerance setting. Some pics and a short story. The general set up of the timing device. The degree wheel is tightened between two nuts and spacers so that you can move it with force. TDCs were checked. Front cylinder was spot on the mark and rear 0.5-1.0 degree off. So as previously stated by many builders those timing marks are spot on. This indicator does not move with wind The manual chain tightener on top of the original one. Hand tightened. Markings on front cylinder exhaust Rear marks Rear exhaust marking. Let us see if it stays there. As the TSS does not need the vacuum I took out the center piece of the new clutch diaphragm and the spacers as well as the nut was left out. In the pics you can see the center piece taken out and the old diaphragm. There it is now. Ready to go into the frame, after which I have the pipes done. That should be quite simple when I have the Gen2 headers and a full Akra Gen1 2-2 system. This will take place mid/ end of February. I am taking a short pause with this. |
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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dog78
Premium Member Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Location: Winchester UK Status: Offline Points: 1508 |
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Good work, looking forward to your review when it's running, which should be soon.It was nice to follow the build, well done
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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^
Well. I talked to the dyno guy today and the best for me would be to have it done on a Saturday. Well, some Saturdays are not possible for him as he travels the WorldSSP circus together with Kallio Racing and I have my schedule to fit in too. Dyno room run in plus tuning could go all the way up to mid April. However, I will keep posting about the engine change and pipe work a little as this thread is hopefully a "turn on" to someone tentative on similar ideas.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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redratbike
Moderator Group The Collector Messiah Joined: 07 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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good news on completing the build ...bet you cant wait to see how it performs
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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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I will be terror-stricken to push the ignition the first time after the oil circuit has been bled.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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redratbike
Moderator Group The Collector Messiah Joined: 07 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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JMH , normally people use washers and longer bolts on the cam sprockets .
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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Some do. Three bolts will do the job. I will take a look under the rear cover after the dyno run. Front cannot move unless the engine runs backwards
Edit: Normally cam gears have only two bolts. A fair point though. If there was a gear to be concerned it would be the rear exhaust where you have the balancer gear on top. Btw. Has anyone ditched the upper balancer? Looks a bit useless to me. Second edit: A little bit of searching and the blancer should stay now and in the future. A bad idea.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Went back to the TBs. It turned out that the threads on the throttle mechanism (green) for the idle control knob on the right hand side of the engine are different on the 2004 TBs. Thought it was going to be a quick change to swap the mechanisms. NOT. Those cross headed screws (three altogether, you can see two of them on the bigger TB on the right) holding the mechanism to the TB are: A) made out of cheese B) some japanese JIS-type cross heads C) stuck like sh*t to a blanket During this weekend I'll get some better tools to get them out and I'll be getting better screws as replacement as well. The experience of my friends from similar screws in Japanese carburators is the same I found out later. They have always ended up drilling them and changing the screws. |
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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Raimo
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Had exactly the same problem with mine. Those screws must be fitted with tons of loctite from the factory. Did you try to heating them up carefully?
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Raimo. We will have a mini torch, a better drill, left handed drill bits etc. next weekend. We got one screw out, one is chewn to bits and one left untouched.
For the damaged one I would offer a left handed drill bit first. Heat & torque simultaneously. I also got new screws, stainless M5x20 that I cut to length.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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redratbike
Moderator Group The Collector Messiah Joined: 07 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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I remember them being a pain but can’t remember how I dealt with them
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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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You do get some mullered screws out when you have got enough arsenal. The mechanism from the Gen1 TB came out with the impact driver alone. Once we were on it we dropped the engine as well. I remembered I got the sidestand switch bypass to the wiring loom since 2014 or something and took the a bit dubious looking but still working sidestand switch away. Weight saving is important as working at the pinnacle of motorsports in Paimio is no fun and games.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Some electrical. The white barrel connector on the tuned engine was fried so I took that piece from the engine removed. While at it I connected the rear coil wires to the front coil as seen in the pictures. I remember this being one trick to avoid ECU fault codes. Is this correct now?
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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The wiring is correct.
Pics showing the old connector fried that worked though until the end of the bike's life and the new enhanced version:
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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f**k. I am so pissed off right now! The bloody thermal sensors. I have completely missed this part and don't recall reading about it anywhere. Gen1 has a sensor on the rear cylinder (to ECU) and front cylinder (to dash). Gen2 has only a sensor on rear cylinder to ECU.
Got the machine in place and realized this. Thought that not a biggie. I just open the plug. Is it bloody tight or what. Looks like the only option is to drop the engine and take out the big tools again, heat, cooling spray, impact driver etc. This sets me back one day on the build and I was hoping to hand over the bike to the guy making the exhaust next week. Now it seems a tad tight. So, take note! The front cylinder plug. |
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Victory! I got it.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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redratbike
Moderator Group The Collector Messiah Joined: 07 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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Yay!!
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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk |
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badapple
Premium Member Joined: 03 Nov 2014 Location: Norwich United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 5608 |
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Well done that man
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I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left
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Diablo
Premium Member Joined: 29 Sep 2010 Location: Upwell Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
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Woop-woop
I don't recall reading that anywhere either. |
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Question everything.
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Fugly
Moto GP Alien Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Location: Cambridgeshire Status: Offline Points: 754 |
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I thought I had read (And I could well be wrong) that someone fitted a temp sensor to the rad to get the second sensor reading.
But as said I could be wrong
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Full Arrows system, 1060 Big Bore, PC5 and Evo Airbox. Bring on the big grin!
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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^ For sure you can fit a sensor somewhere but if you take a look at the coolant flow in the system in different temperatures the only hose that has flow all the time is the tight 90 degree bend next to the coolant pump in case you want to fit the sensor to returning coolant. (if I remember correctly) The point is to have sensible readings and a measurement cannot be more accurate than the sample. Hence the heads are a logical point of measurement. If the reading is taken elsewhere one needs to first understand what is going on.
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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JMH
Moto GP Alien Joined: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Paimio, FIN Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Ignition is only a fuel tank and exhaust system away. The tank has the base layer already I was told and I am hoping to get the bike to the exhaust maker this weekend.
One question. I bled the oil circulation without plugs with an external car battery. Now the engine has sucked approximately 1 L oil in. I have poured ~4 L in and the oil level in the tank is slightly below the middle of min/max marks. Would you consider the system bled? |
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Mille Aarrr -02 (1060 BB, Gen2 heads, 2-2 Akra, timed cams, bespoke Gabro chip + TSS slipper) & Beta 480 RR MY19
My riding lines are like Hendrix's solos. Unexpected and always different. |
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