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flatlander View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 09:04
Don't know if anyone has seen any news about tge Catalan referendum nut it has morphed into a question of democracy.

I believe that the High commissioner for tge UN on human rights has written to tge Spanish government to remind them of their fundemental obligations.

Now i am a little biaseD on thus question but leaving aside the legality of the referendum and tge technical arguments regarding it here's a sunary of events in so far as I know.

www.catalansuk.com/



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/21/spains-dangerous-bid-to-block-catalan-vote?CMP=twt_gu



http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/catalan-independence-referendum-self-determination-separatist-spain-government-unpopular-region-a7959286.html



https://onvotar.garantiespelreferendum.com/index.html

This link may not work as central government has ordered that it be blocked

The government of Madrid has banned the Catalan government from promoting the referendum taken over the police and finances arrested at least 14 members of the regional government put up to 5000 soldiers police and civil guard in the area.


They are cutting lighting on the day of the vote the have opened prosecutions against all the mayors of tge region for allowing the vote and imposing fines of up to 12000 euros A DAY against those involved.


They have had raids on catalan political parties headquarters and institutions often without warrants amongst other things

They have also been warned of more to come

Now as tge alleged UN letter reminds them people have a right to determinaci├│n without fear and intimidation which is kind of what as become the focus for many people including support from other areas of Spain



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ice-mille Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 10:16
I am shocked waow ­čś▒
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 11:09
Well it does fly in the face of the great EU subjugation dream doesn't it?  Are you surprised?

The more people that demand the right to determine their own destiny the better I think

Anyway,this has reminded me that over on the old SV Portal we had a section called "Rave On" that was for anything non bike related where we could raise all sorts of issues and I've often wondered if we could have something similar ???

Thoughts??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 11:22
You may need to swap your t and g key around


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 11:55
T and g is if I type the this poxy phone insists on tge so I've just given up on it now.


The Madrid government has also raided private print shops to confiscate voting papers.

They have said that they will not allow the vote under any terms and will stop it at any cost.

The voting teams have to be volunteens or be fined as above.

People are being stopped in the streets and any pto referendum. ... not just pro independence material seized.

An open letter has been sent from 100 uk mps etc to the madrid government asking them to open some form of dialogue which has been rejected out of hand under the excuse that they will not talk to law breakers.

The central government have exercised emergency powers without the proper approval

The aut├│nomos police.. tge Mossos have said they will maintain order but rejected being put under the direct command of the civil guard.
Their CO is reported as having told the central ministry that they are exceeding their authority.

I should explain that sending the civil guard to catalonia is similar to deploying paras on the streets of Londonderry. In and of itself it is provocative.

The political party whose offices were raided without cause claim to have distributed 1 million voting papers by hand in Barcelona and are being charged with Sedition

The latest prediction is tgat tge central government may force a regional governor the same as under Franco and the dictatorship.

Tge law that central government are using is tge constitution which refers to it being illegal to dismantle Spain. It does not as far as I can tell prohibit talking about it or running votes. It only talks about tge acts such as declaring independence


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 18:01
So when you think about it it's just the same as Scotland having a referendum for self rule?

Mighty tolerant here aren't we  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grahamives Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 18:13
I think Scotland had a referendum in 2014 or maybe I dreamt it  Wink
If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gloin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 19:38
Soon be time for the International Brigades to get involved again as they did in 1936-38Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 20:26
Originally posted by grahamives grahamives wrote:

I think Scotland had a referendum in 2014 or maybe I dreamt it  Wink


Quite

That's what I'm saying ,we are very tolerant here,we could have taken the Spanish line heh?

If they want to go ,fine by me Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Af1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 20:53

The english should have a vote to kick out the Scots. That would be democracy !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 07:38
Bit harsh that Shocked


That would be true democracy though I suppose,it seems many ethnic minorities ( I'm thinking Catalans here,not the Scots) want self rule now rather than big government from a distance.

Seems even the Germans are quietly rebelling if the polls are anything to go by,that one could get interesting
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 14:39
And now the pope is involved the central government has written to the Vatican to ask them to contel the Catalan priests and Deacons as over 400 of them have demonstrated in favour of a referendum. Including the Arch Bishop of Barcelona. At least 1 monastery has offered to stage the vote in their premises.
That might depend on whether the civil guard will let them have the voting urns back that have been confiscated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cwp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 19:24
When me and a mate went on a biking holiday down France and Spain we ended up in lloret der mar. Somehow a bouncer in one of the Rock bars introduced me to this guy who got talking politics about how Wales had what catalunia wanted ie own govt. That was back in 03 so it's been going on years. I didn't get involved as I just wanted to get back on the ale lol.let them have the vote and get on with it I suppose if that's what they want
born ugly what's your excuse!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Careca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 20:17
I for one want feel very strongly about the right to govern myself. I wan't people in charge that have my best interest at heart. I.E that of the people they are elected to govern.  If they can't/won't then I am very happy to run for govt and do the job myself. I certainly feel I could do a much better job.
I will not accept governance from anyone else. I certainly won't accept some Belgian who knows nothing about me telling me anything .Piss off. 
I will never vote for a foreign faction/ nation governing me.

That said...............if you want your own governance then you have to be completely independent . You can't do what Scotland wanted to do which was to be independent and still have some of the benefits of a union. ( I.E The rest to pick up the tab ) .In that respect I think Scotland was very lucky. I think if England had been allowed to vote in that referendum the outcome would have been very different. 
Fortunately it was a 1 off vote and that nonsense has been put to bed. 

The issue in Spain will never go away unless they get a vote. In the interim hard factions on both sides will flex their muscles to get their way . It will probably get ugly . The Spanish govt must be under pressure.........Gibraltar, the Catalans and the EU. 

Que miseria.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 21:30
So now the next step is that anyone faciltating entry to public buildings where people may vote will be charged with a whole host of alleged crimes and that the aut├│nomos police have been instructed to register tge details of anyone attempting to vote with a view to further action
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FTM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 09:18
When I was a kid we had some Basques start in my year at school. Their family had fled Spain because the Spanish government were arresting Basque Nationalists. That was 50 years ago and it's still on going so don't hold your breath flatlander that anything will be sorted soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 11:05
My in laws grew up in the civil war and my Father in law had his dad shot for giving water to an injured combatant.
So i think i would have to agree
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bladebod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 11:43
Is it going to affect my annual trips to the Isle of Mann TT ? its expensive enough as it is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 13:32
No but the catalunya GP maybe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FTM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 18:35
I saw the strangest thing today, a Catalan flag flying by the side of the Chichester to Rowlands Castle road. I didn't know for sure what flag it was but I checked when I got home. There's surprisingly little of this news story in the media considering how important it could become. This thread was the first I'd heard of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 20:33
What's even more surprising is that tge president rajoy doesn't have an overall majority and is being supported by tge socialists


I have heard more about the kurdish referendum than tge catalan one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 09:51
As today is the date for the vote a little update
So far tge civil guard and the national police are forcibly entering schools and other places designated as voting stations and breaking open offices cupboards etc to look for the voting urns

There have been some injuries but tge catalans are only offering peaceful resistance from what we can see.
A police source has said undercover agents will pretend to vote later to get close to the voting urns and then snatch them

They hace tried to stop the catalan president voting but he changed locations at the last minute and avoided them.

The locals are trying to us tractors and vehicles to stop the anti disturbance vans getting closer to the centres.

The central government has blocked any website they can to impede voting

TV3 de Catalunya abailable on kidi is broadcasting live images where you can see the events.

As one commentator has said the central government has done more this week to promote independence than the last 40 years of political motivation.

The locals have been occupying their halls under the guise of civil acts classes etc so they cannot be close.
Central government have placed a summons against tge catalan education ministry for abuse of children due to them being politicised
They have also entered tge centre of communications of tge catalan government to prevent electronic checking of votes
Sorry but its quite interesting for us


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tin Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 10:08
Like you say, I believe the Spanish governments actions are going to backfire on them and only further the determination of the Catalans wishing for independence and even sway the minds of those undecided to voting to break away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 12:49
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WcfOjTMtdWs


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41457238
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cwp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 16:31
Think this is gonna blow up in the face of govt. As has been said, they've done more to promote the catalunia cause this last week than the independence movement has in last few decades
born ugly what's your excuse!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 17:07
"Si me dices ven lo dejo todo ... pero dime ven"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gloin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 17:42
Typical of the cowards in power in the EU to turn their backs to the atrocities being committed by the Spanish police against the Catalans. Sooner we leave the EU behind the better. I really hope that Spain has measures taken to curd their Fascist behaviour  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 17:44
So far EU have said it's an internal matter and advised the catalans to cooperate to avoid worse actions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gloin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 18:00
Typically weak response from the EU. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 19:55
Originally posted by flatlander flatlander wrote:

So far EU have said it's an internal matter and advised the catalans to cooperate to avoid worse actions


mmm. I'm not suggesting it's as extreme but Iraq was an 'Internal' matter too. As is Syria and Rwanda!
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