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Anyone got a "GOOD" Gen 2 engine?

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Moto GP Alien
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    Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 12:56
Hi all,

Sorry not been around much as I am playing carer for my father 100 miles away most weekends and with work as well life isn't a huge amount of fun right now and seems to have got a bit worse.

OK long story long.

My Tuone was laid up from September to March which I melted lost of alluminium trying to fabricate a 24 litre tank.

Fast foward to April May time and I screw it all back together fire her up to thin the oil and give her a service etc and notice the water pump mechanical seal has died.

A quick call to Griff says it's easier to change the clutch cover casing (housed the water pump) as the seal is expensive and bit of a pig to change (it's ceramic and needs pressing into the casing without damaging it) so I buy a case from the bay and swap them over.  Fire it up and it knocks  about 4 or 5 times as if there's no pressure and then goes quiet.  I think this is strange and do some research which concludes there are 3 sizes of bearing that can be fitted in the clutch cover casing so I assume this one has larger bearings but have no way of identifying what is fitted and what I need.  

So I bite the bullet and buy the ceramic seal and change the one in my original case and refit that.  

Fire it up and again it knocks 4 - 5 times and settles down, let it warm up to check for leaks etc, turn it off and start it again and again it knocks.  

I was sure it didn't do it when I first fired it up and is only since refitting the case but it's doing it hot or cold.

So I am thinking of buying a motor to swap over so I can at least get some miles in this year whilst I either strip it and investigate or take it up to Griff and the boys.

Any ideas or if you have a spare lump, let me know.

Fuggers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 13:54
Have you got the long oil filter fitted ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 13:57
No it's a short one as it was before
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 13:57
Would difference would that make?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 14:49
Originally posted by Fugly Fugly wrote:

Would difference would that make?

 
Quite a few bikes suffer startup oil pressure delays with the long filter. Amauri on Af1 tested them with a pressure gauge and it can take up to 10 seconds longer to reach normal pressure with the long filter depending on the state of the oil pump but always longer compared to the short filter. Sometimes it manifests itself as an oil light flicker and on some as a knock at startup. Before you throw money at a new engine, assuming you have the long filter, change it for the short version. If the shell bearings have been toasted, it's possible the long filter was the cause if you run them.

There was a run of shell bearing failures on late gen2 bikes even in warranty. They all came oem with long filters from 07. Some bikes seem happy on them but me personally I wouldn't ever go there.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 14:57
Hi Spoonz,

Many thanks for that, the bike has always run the short filter but am wondering if the filter is draining once the engine stops.

Fuggers 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 15:06
Is it a bottom end knock or top end, tensioners etc. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 15:09
Definitely bottom end

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 15:24
Might be worth dropping the oil. If it's new you can always re use it again. If the shell bearings are toast there would normally be signs in the oil.
Is the knock one sided on the engine at all ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 16:35
The more I think about it the more I am convinced it's an oil filter issue.

The knock doesn't appear to be one side or the other.

Will pick up a new filter and drop the oil, it's new (as in run for one heat cycle to check the level) so hopefully I have got away with it but we will see once I drop the oil.

Off to find a nice clean bucket 

Thanks for your help, much appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 17:11
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

 
There was a run of shell bearing failures on late gen2 bikes even in warranty. They all came oem with long filters from 07. Some bikes seem happy on them but me personally I wouldn't ever go there.
 
 


Micah also arrived at the conclusion that some engines used hard failed due to insufficient journal clearance on the cheaper,later induction hardened cranks, compounded by the oil delivery holes in the journals not being radiused and the lighter spring in the oil pump not delivering such a high pressure

I have a suspicion the accountants were in charge of the later models Confused
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2018 at 09:57
Hi all,
Very small update.
I have dropped the oil and there are NO bits of shell bearing in it which I am taking a s good news but it had only had one heat cycle so trying to be realistic.
The fact it only did this after I had changed the side casing and then put the original back with the rebuilt pump seal as the replacement case knocked so I thought it had the wrong size shells in it.
The only thing after going back to the original side case that is different is the oil filter. Is there such a thing as a duff filter that is not holding pressure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2018 at 11:30
Only way a filter will cause a problem is from restricting flow, or in the case of the long filter adding 25% larger area to fill hence the delay in the pressure rising.
Unless there is a manufacturing defect with the filter I can't see how it will cause a problem but stranger things have happened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2018 at 11:54
Just had a call from Griff, who has me (hopefully) convinced that my issue is a cam chain tensioner. I've only heard a failed tensioner on an IL4 and it sounds nothing like this, this sounds (to me) to be pure bottom end.
Going to put the oil and filter back in it this evening and have a closer listen and take a sound recording of it.
If it does turn out to be a tensioner I will be happy as a pig in muck, strange how one failure can make you soo much happier than another...
Fingers crossed   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fugly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2018 at 08:57
OK, put the filter and oil in and fired her up but this time standing on the left.  Knocked as before but sounded completely different on this side and seemed to be less bottom end.

Also after a heat cycle it was nowhere near so bad so going for the front cylinder cam chain tensioner  which Griff has dispatched so will get that fitted and fingers crossed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badapple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2018 at 09:25
Originally posted by Fugly Fugly wrote:

OK, put the filter and oil in and fired her up but this time standing on the left.  Knocked as before but sounded completely different on this side and seemed to be less bottom end.

Also after a heat cycle it was nowhere near so bad so going for the front cylinder cam chain tensioner  which Griff has dispatched so will get that fitted and fingers crossed.

Sounds promising mate good luck
I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left
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