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05 RSVR Factory cutting out when hot

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thekid View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 May 2018 at 07:01
Morning RSVR tech gurus, I'm looking for some help with a cut out issue if anybody has any ideas they'd be gratefully received...

About a month ago I bought an 05 RSVR Factory.  The bike is in great cosmetic condition and has just under 9500 miles on the clock, of which only 1000 have been done in the last 5 years (probably not such a good thing).  Test ride was fine, as was the 2 hour ride home in the evening after I bought it.  So far, so good...

I took it out for a longish ride a few weeks ago and after about 2-3 hours of riding I was coming off a roundabout, opened up the throttle and the revs momentarily fell away to nothing.  Opened the throttle further and it kicks back in and lurches to the horizon.  Bit of a WTF moment but all fine.  From that point on the rev cut outs start happening with increasing frequency.  Eventually the bike just cut out completely so I coasted to a stop.  No engine warning lights (or any other lights) showed on the dash and the bike would restart fine straight away.  But by this point it could do about 1 mile before cutting out again.  

It was a hot weekend but the temperature gauge on the bike was reading about 90 degrees C which seems normal enough. I thought maybe it was some kind of heat related issue so I stopped and waited for the bike to cool.  After waiting until it reached about 70 degrees C I set off and got about 5-10 miles further before it cut out again.  This time the red engine warning triangle showed so not wanting to ride on I called a recovery service.  At this point the bike would restart but even at idle it sounded weak and trembling and the revs would just fade out to a cut out after about 30-60 seconds of running.  I started the bike in diagnostic mode and it showed EFI and 0, which I think means no recorded fault?

The recovery van turned up after about 90 mins and the bike had cooled, engine warning light was gone and engine started fine.  Opted to nurse it home rather than go in the truck and have to pay for the mileage.  Turned out to be a mistake as got another 10-15 miles and it cut out whilst doing about 50mph. This time I gave up and waited for the recovery van.

One other thing of note was that the battery was on its way out when I bought the bike so I replaced it with a like for like Yuasa battery.  I've checked the battery output on the dash and it's around 12.5 at idle and about 14 when revved (this is from memory as bike is in garage now).

Googling around shows a heap of possible reasons for these problems.  I don't think it's an electrical switch/sensor related issue as the bike ran for a while without issue.  I got back in touch with the previous owner and asked if the issue or anything similar had come up before.  He said no and I've no reason to doubt him as he seemed a good guy.  The bike hasn't done much mileage in the last 5 years so he probably wouldn't have seen the issue even if it had been there.

I took the bike to a garage with a Texa diagnostic kit which can read the ecu data, apparently all that showed up was a fuel injector fault which they don't think is the problem (not sure why, presumably because the bike starts and runs).  They reckon based on another Aprilia they had in with a similar issue that it is an electrical fault, probably from a burnt out wire/connector.

Any help in narrowing down likely issues would be greatly appreciated!  At the moment the garage are looking for issues with the wiring which could last a very long time and cost $$$.  In theory I'm supposed to ride the bike up to the Isle of Man in about a week and half's time, but that seems unlikely right now Confused.

Cheers,

Billy


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 10:29
I'm no expert on electrics but based on a fault I had try jiggling the wires where they go into the bottom of the ignition switch as there is a possibility one of the wires has come adrift from it's solder and is making intermittent contact,this is not unknown.

I had something similar happen though mine was sometimes a complete absence of power to starter,dash although the pump powered up as usual.  You will get different effects depending on which wire is affected. My problem came to light when the bars were locked over and the harness became stretched

Problem is easily fixed though if this is the cause,though it's possibly more likely to be something fuel related like the short hose in the tank degrading due to sitting in ethanol fuel for years.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 10:29
sounds a bit like the fuel pump. Quite a few go the way of working until they get hot and then start acting up. They generally won't throw a code when doing so.
 
Other possibles are tip over switch if you have tinkered around the batt or sidestand switch but those are more likely to be solid rather than just when hot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 08:52
how did you fix the ignition switch Ian?
Mines been playing up and I suspect this as the cause
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thekid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 09:26
Cheers for the pointers so far.  I plan on going back to the garage today and seeing where they've got to.  Will update the thread if they've found anything.  

The fuel pump, or some part of the fuel system, sounds logically like the strongest fault.  As the bike will run from cold for a while before the cut out happens, then it kicks in quicker and quicker, it doesn't seem like an electrical connection.  Time will tell though!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 11:16
Originally posted by arran arran wrote:

how did you fix the ignition switch Ian?
Mines been playing up and I suspect this as the cause


I followed this video 

The only issue you will have is removing the security shear bolt,I also dremmelled a slot across it and used a large screwdriver in the end. This could really be replaced by an equivalent size cap head if you have one handy on re assembly,I didn't so just re used the original as tight as I could get it.

I also disconnected the short harness at the plug behind the headstock and remove the harness tape,this allowed me to stack the individual wires ( flatten them )  so that when re covered they were much more flexible in the fork area.

One thing I did find was that the wire that had come adrift seemed slightly shorter than the rest probably due to the way the harness was initially laid up so that was actually acting as a straining wire.

It's easy enough to pull the harness forward a bit after re soldering so there is much less chance of this problem happening again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thekid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 18:58
OK, so as an update, I checked in with the garage today.  The conclusions they've drawn so far are:

  1. The ECU had registered an injector open circuit fault
  2. With the battery disconnected there is a high resistance reading when they check between the  injector plug's positive terminal and the battery negative terminal.
This doesn't mean a great deal to me.  Apparently that resistance reading shouldn't be there and indicates some kind of dodgy wiring issue between the ECU and the injector.  No idea whether this is correct or not, but just relaying what the guy at the garage said.

He reckons the plan is to try and chase the fault through the loom and then fix the dodgy connection/wire, or go for the more nuclear option of replacing the wiring loom.  Apparently the parts cost for the wiring loom is around £1k which is crushing!

I could go buy a second hand wiring loom from ebay, but obviously the risk there is that it has fault in it somewhere and the job would have to be repeated.  Changing the wiring loom is a time involved job (no real surprise there), so this could also be expensive.  Second hand wiring looms sell for around the £50-100 mark on ebay so perhaps not such a bad route.

In the mix on all of this is that the clock is ticking before I'm supposed to go on a 5 day trip with some friends next Wednesday, so a week tomorrow.

Probably my best bet at this point will be to arrange to beg/borrow a bike from a mate!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 19:04
the injector wires are fragile at best. Look at the connectors. It is also worth removing the fuel pump and cleaning the tea bag filter. As Spoonz said this has happened to many and is cleared with a clean. Most likely never been done before. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thekid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 20:56
Yeah from everything I read online the fuel pump or some part thereof sounds like a fit.  I'll badger the garage to take it apart and see if anything shows up.

Weirdly, skimming the RSVR workshop manual (https://www.scribd.com/doc/39921202/Aprilia-RSV-Workshop-Manual-2004-2008) shows on page 3-15 the notes for the "Open Circuit front/rear cyclinder injector" ECU fault as "It is a signal that can also be displayed by chance and with no actual part fault" - kind of pointless having it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 21:15
Injector errors in the ecu are very common and most often spurious. Just the process of connecting the axone can spike the ecu into throwing them. Unless they appear as active faults rather than historic i wouldn't assume they are the problem.

The injectors read something like 40k ohms measured in the way the mech is doing it which may seem high to him but is he making a comparison between injectors or just assuming it's high ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thekid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2018 at 17:21
A quick update on what has become a real pain in the ass.

I called the garage on Wednesday to ask them to check the fuel pump filter and fuel lines and the guy refused saying it would be a waste of time as it's definitely an electrical fault and he has 25 years in the industry etc etc.  No doubt it is annoying to have a customer try and overrule you, but I didn't expect this.  It would have been relatively easy for them to do the check as they already had the tank off and propped up.  I work doing consultancy work and if clients overrule my advice I just shrug my shoulders and take the money if they're still insistent once I've explained my thinking.  Anyway the guy got tetchy and said he was with a customer and would call me back.  No call came and I tried calling again at the end of the day only to find my mobile number had been blocked.  I used another phone and got through to them at which point I asked them to just put the bike back together as there would be little chance the bike would be fixed before my planned motorbike trip next week, so I might as well have a go myself and try and save money.  As they'd only done 2-3 hours work on it in nearly 2 weeks of having the bike a sudden breakthrough seemed unlikely.

Went to pick the bike up yesterday, was charged £155 to get the bike back in exactly the same state I dropped it off in. But.....they've managed to reset the odometer to zero on the bike!  I guess this is from having the bike sat with the battery disconnected for 2 weeks and running into the common clock fault.  Frustrating as I've paid them to give me the bike back in a worse condition than when I gave it to them and 2 weeks down on time.

Some sort of saving grace is that the bike had its MOT at a different garage immediately before I dropped it off at this one (they don't do Aprilia servicing but I really really wish they did!).  So I know the mileage almost exactly. The garage apparently know someone who specialises in 'mileage correction' and they would take the dash off and give it to him to restore the MOT mileage plus the 2 mile drive to their garage.  This costs £80 and I'm not optimistic that it will work or that it won't break something else in the meantime.

I'm borrowing an old CBR600 for the trip on Wednesday off a mate.  Hopefully that will be reliable as all this garage hassle is stressing me out!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CarsOrBikes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2018 at 18:20
I've only encountered three running issues on my Apes in 14 years, one was a cut out at random which turned out to be corroded wires in one of the wiring blocks beneath the left tank/fairing infill just behind the headlight, I think it was for the clocks, the connector had lost tension too.

Another was due to a backed out wire on another bike, from the tps

The last was a couple of years ago on the current bike, which turned out to be the stator dying, easily tested, this fault was one like yours that if the throttle was opened more the bike would lurch like nothing else. I rode the thing back from Betwys to the Wirral like I was in a rodeo, amazing I ever got it home, and is no surprise I need a new chain really,

Because it's easy, I'd do the stator check for the hell of it.

True about the injector codes, often dismissed as they're a glitch fault.

Name and shame the garage for others benefit, it isn't their fault about the clocks, it's your bike with the fault (sorry) which isn't their problem when the battery has to be off for other work, but their behaviour was sh*te.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2018 at 18:23
The main reason why using bike workshops to do any work on my bikes is a last resort.
It's just too much of a lottery as to whether they've got a scooby what they're doing. 
Alarm bells would have been ringing as soon as they suggested replacing the loom. What ever the fault, first aim is to trace it and the cause.
Have you thought about taking the bike up to (the definitely reliable) AP?; you know they'll sort it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badapple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2018 at 19:24
Thats some shocking customer service no wonder you are pissed off i certainly would be. As above id check the fuel filter had the exact symptoms on my current 55plt factory once cleaned up it was fine until i developed the other fault on the STATOR so I've had both problems. I have fitted s re wind from west country windings to early to say for sure but so far so good. As for the clocks nothing you can do now but in the future do not disconnect or reconnect the batery with the key in the ignition as 5his has happened to me several times but never since following that advice. Coincidence maybe but i don't take the risk.  Good luck!
I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2018 at 09:39
You have not had a good time.  :-(

The cut out:  did it die straight out.....as in riding, then absolutly bugger all?  Not even one cylinder firing?  Your problem was exactly the one I had last month where it ran OK for a few miles then just stopped running.  I sorted mine.  I noticed the sound of the fuel pump was slightly different so just ordered a complete fuel pump assembly, from Ebay of all places for £69 delivered!  Off a 15K Tuono Gen 2.  Not bad.  Dont be put off by milage, my original pump did 60K miles, and I still have that.

My issue was I replaced it during a build for a £25 chinese replacement.  What a load of sh*t!

Anyway, I couldnt put my old pump back in as I modified the plastic carrier for the new pump which was 1mm wider.....so had to buy a full assembly.  Took 20 minutes to fit.

I also removed my immoboliser and resoldered it....just incase it was causing the issues.....but fairly certain I had a pump problem.  Been OK since.

An easy way to drain the tank before removing: take the fuel return pipe off the pressure regulator which is left side of throttle bodies.  Put your finger over the end.  Guide the pipe out to the side and into a petrol can, then release...then lower the bikes tank to normal position.  This will get ALL the fuel out, enough for you to remove the tank and remove the fuel pump assembly.

Look on ebay...last time I looked there was another fuel assembly for about £70, which is a a good price.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thekid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2018 at 17:20
Afternoon,

Apologies for the radio silence, I was off at the Isle of Man TT for a while and then got side tracked doing a minor service on the bike I borrowed as a thank you to the friend who lent it to me.

Thanks for the tip off on how to fully drain the fuel tank.  I have a siphon so was going to use that but your method sounds much easier to get all the petrol out.  I'm off at a friend's wedding this weekend and my wife has had enough of me spending ages either talking or working on motorbikes for a while, so this is going to go quiet for a bit.  Next plan is to check the fuel filter and if it looks clean enough then replace the fuel pump like you say.

The garage who reset the clocks didn't have any luck with restoring the mileage so it's stuck at near zero still.  They did write on their invoice to me that the odometer reset whilst under their care, along with the previous mileage, so I have some evidence as to the true mileage of the bike.  They also refunded the servicing costs less the cost of the diagnostic, on the basis the bike is in a worse state than when I gave it to them.  I think we'll call it quits at that as the Aprilia mileage reset bug could have got pretty much any garage except Aprilia specialists.  

Next update in a few weeks time once I've found some time to put a garage session in.

Thanks again for all the help so far.
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